[2.6.7] Drunken Master

[[f13]`11411181]

If his ultimate is going to get nerfed, he needs to get compensated with something like a better farming mechanism or better early game presence.

It's almost like the first post suggested that! :O :O :O :O

[_theEnemy_]

It's almost like the first post suggested that! :O :O :O :O

True lol, but my main suggestion was to not change DM at all for now. Reworking it that way would simply make DM fall in line with other typical melee carries. Instead, DM is a unique carry pick that works extremely well against certain lineups. He fits his role well, but is by no means OP. There's no reason to rework his ult. Also I was mainly addressing everyone besides OP.

[Sire]

LMAO. I cant believe you guys keep saying omg dm does too much damage etc. You have to be joking me. He did so much damage when people didnt buy armor back when moon starting playing dm and stomping with him. Hes SO easily countered by void, null, any armor items. Heck, RoT basically almost counters his entire sol's. Its like sayin "omg a fayde a with codex can 1 shot me my life is ruined" Yes, before, dm could one shot supports when they got 0 armor items. Not to mention it's much easier to gank with fayde with the invis, and fayde has a 100x better stun. Fayde also one shots any support, assuming she has codex, even if they have vestments and steamboots. DM doesn't one shot anyone if they even have a ring of teacher, and with armor boots, pff, the support can literally tp out after dm stuns. Dm is a bad carry, unless people counter him. Hes not like chronos where if you get armor he's countered because, chronos can jump in from 1200 range and do a 5 second disable on your team and kill two people, assuming he has items. Dm needs 6600 gold to get a sols and sb lvl 3, and he cant even farm well or gank early game. So he has a bad early game, and an easily countered mid and late game. Sure his ulti provides tons of survivability, but if you nerf that, that means dm has to get survivability items in his build, meaning he does no damage against smart players who buy +armor, and he has a weak single target stun, thats it. You honestly have to buff him. If you think his perma nullstone is op, then you picked a shitty line up with all single target, like getting polly, succy, dev, etc. People seem to forget how easy it is to get +armor. spend 1350 gold on armor boots, and get a ring of teacher, boom, +8 armor. Dm cant do anything then. DM was seen in the comp scene until he got that initial nerf sb and sols, and then the drink charges huge nerf.

Also, think of this. You have a cthulu with a sols, abbysal skull, and plated greaves. Thats 4 + 5 + 2 armor = 11 to his ENTIRE TEAM. more than a sols and sb combined.

[changlingbob]

E: I missed some intervening posts.

Compared to a lot of heroes out there right now, DM is nowhere near OP. If his ultimate is going to get nerfed, he needs to get compensated with something like a better farming mechanism or better early game presence.

So we're talking better laning presence than a 1.5s disable (with reposition), 8.3hp/s on demand for sustainability, a gap closer, a slow, and burst equivalent to roughly 200 magic damage, dependent on how much you boost your attack damage and how much armor the target has?

(you do admittedly need to get to level three for all that, and won't get all of the effects without channeling for a while first)

Are you high?

[Sire]

E: I missed some intervening posts.


So we're talking better laning presence than a 1.5s disable (with reposition), 8.3hp/s on demand for sustainability, a gap closer, a slow, and burst equivalent to roughly 200 magic damage, dependent on how much you boost your attack damage and how much armor the target has?

(you do admittedly need to get to level three for all that, and won't get all of the effects without channeling for a while first)

Are you high?

What trick do you do that makes you have so much mana for all this? damn dude, thats crazy, 230 mana cost for all his spells? Oh and his Drink gives him 3 charges level one, 6 level two. so he can only have his burst (which is physical damage btw rofl) when he uses all his mana, and when he has level two drink, which you cant only really attain at lvl 4 assuming you level your other two skills. Lvl 4 takes a while in laning, and at mid, dm simply does not have enough lane control or kill potential to do that well mid, you literally can only sit and farm your sols and sb, or ask for a gank and maybe get a kill. Oh and his disable isnt like hammerstorms. You cant do a dm pyro lane because unless they have perfect coordination, dm will pull the player back in an unpredictable way. Not to mention dm cant attack during this disable, so he has a disable worth 2 auto attacks of damage, while hammer would have a disable worth 100 magic damage (level 1) but he can auto attack during that time and his lane member can hit his stun perfectly. Its all about the mana, which dm has very little of.

You must be high yourself bro.

Edit: Forgot to mention dm's stun is a mere 400 range, or near 600 if you spend mana for stagger and stun, approx. 170 mana lmao. Hammers stun is 600 all levels, correctly me if im wrong. And its aoe

[changlingbob]

Blood chalice.

E: and with 8.33hp/s, you can spam it whenever you need mana.

[_theEnemy_]

E: I missed some intervening posts.


So we're talking better laning presence than a 1.5s disable (with reposition), 8.3hp/s on demand for sustainability, a gap closer, a slow, and burst equivalent to roughly 200 magic damage, dependent on how much you boost your attack damage and how much armor the target has?

(you do admittedly need to get to level three for all that, and won't get all of the effects without channeling for a while first)

Are you high?

In a 2v2 lane, you won't be able to get all of that off in a high level game. Stagger is typically used as the gap closer but usually does not have enough range to actually hit and damage the heroes (most of which are 600 ranged heroes). Lunge's disable usually won't last the full 1.5 seconds as you typically want to push whoever you lunge away from their tower. It usually only lasts ~1 second, which isn't really that great. Also, DM's lunge is easily interrupted as it only disables one hero and if that happens you only end up doing ~80 pre-mitigation damage. You won't get the reposition from the lunge either. Also, many times Drink is leveled over your other 2 skills to be able to stay in lane, so DM's lane presence doesn't increase significantly as he levels.

I'm also confused as to where you got 200 magic damage. I'm pretty sure DM is entirely physical...

Furthermore, DM pales in comparison to the carries that have been popular picks recently. Considering his combo only has ~600 range, he's easily kited by ranged heroes (especially ones with frostwolf and nullstones) and gets outcarried by popular melee carries such as MB and DL.


Everything you say DM has is great, but it's too much speculation and isn't realistic in a game. Also, my point wasn't that DM's laning presence was bad. DM doesn't have an amazing laning presence, but it's by no means a bad one either. My point was that solely nerfing this hero is the wrong way to go, since DM is neither OP nor IMO borderline OP. If his ult gets nerfed he should get buffed in other areas.

[[E]Ahimtar]

i think the win % speaks for all. 64% lose? thats way too much. he definitely needs a buff, probably the ultimate. i dont like the drunk mechanic also, but that would require a complete rework of the hero, so rather stick to the ulti. imo just completely rework it to something useful and fitting :/

[[TECH]Gorb]

The win percentage by itself doesn't indicate a great deal about a hero. Maybe accounting for hero pick rate with that, and then averaging the MMR discrepancy per match where DM was pickced (thus realising the actual positive or negative potential of DM in each match).

Short of watching every single match in question, saying "this needs a buff" from percentages alone is inherently flawed. This is why we debate the nature of a hero and evaluate his ingame performance based on experience in order to come up with a set of changes, if changes are even necessary.

[changlingbob]

I'm also confused as to where you got 200 magic damage. I'm pretty sure DM is entirely physical...

He is entirely physical, but I made some assumptions about armour values; if he did magic nukes that do the same damage as they do now, there would be 200 magic damage, plus autoattack damage.

Also, my point is not so much about his current state, but the problems with balancing the hero.