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[moj0j0]

First, i want to introduce myself, I’m a SEA player from Thailand(my country doesn’t speak English as native language so I’m sorry about my poor English) who love HON very much and I have one interesting suggestion to make HON more fun, balance and challenge and that is
“Intelligence STAT should increase magic damage to the hero’s spells, magic armor and duration of effect!”
Reason : due to most player in public usually play AGI or STR based heroes because INT based hero can’t do much in late game (because INT stat only increase base damage, max mana pool and mana regeneration, but the magic damage and effect of their spells don’t get the benefit at all) so I think if Intelligence STAT increase magic damage to the hero’s spells, magic armor and duration of effect would make INT based heroes shinable in late game
Q: How much it effect?
I think 1 INT stat should increase
(in offensive role)
1% of magic spell damage, e.g. base magic spell damage are 100 magic damage, with 1 INT, this spell deal 101 damage instead.
1% of effect of all spell e.g. if spell like stun have 100 second duration(with 0 INT) but with 1 INT stat, the duration of stun become 101 seconds .

(in defensive role)
+1 magic armor/7 INT (like Armor formula)
1% reduce effect duration of all effect spell <-------------Update, Fix to 0.5% due to OP

Q: Is this change will make INT based heroes OP?
NO, because…
INT stat nor increase hero’s health(which make STR based heroes are very hard to kill) and attack speed(which make AGI based heroes deal a ton of damage at late game) which mean they can’t be super hero.

Q: Is this change will make INT based heroes can stun,hex or ampify damage for a double bonus or duration when their INT reach 100?
Yes, but in practical It’s impossible to have this thing happen, as I already explained above, INT stat in defensive role will help the target(you) reduce effect duration of all effect spell
e.g. if A(have 10 in INT stat) use stun spell(which its based stun duration is 1 second) to B(have 6 in INT stat),with new change of this, the net time that B will be stuned will be calculate by this new formula
Effect duration formula = Base effect duration x ((Enemy’s INT-Target’s INT)/100)
That mean
-If Enemy’s INT>Target’s INT(you) = you suffer effect bonus damage and duration more than normal.
-If Enemy’s INT<Target’s INT(you) = you suffer effect bonus damage and duration less than normal(because you’re smarter than enemy ^^)
so B will be stuned for 1x((10-6)/100) = 1.04 second
Q: So when The Dark Lady reach level 25(67.5 total INT) her Dark blade effect will buff her damage by 80*1.67.5=134% base damage! Thank for your NooB idea.
This problem can be easily fixed by nerf the effect e.g. from 80% base damage to 60% base damage at level 4.
(honestly i want to make INT reduce the cooldown of the spell too but i have no idea to explain bue to i'm very busy right now so i'll skip this idea)
Lastly I hope S2 team try this change and test it via Super Beta Tester(or something, I can’t remember the name ) I hope this change will make game more fun, see more INT hero in every game mode and more strategy to play which will make HON jump to new ERA.
PS:I have many things that want to explain about this change but I can’t do that because I speak poor English(can’t explain in English) sorry again but I hope you get my point.
PS2: if someone can edit my thread, please make the poll for this one with 2 choice(thumb up, thumb down) and i will thank you very much.
And thank you all reader for reading,if you have a comment, feel free to post it here.

End of my 1st comment
-----------------------

Thank you for every comments, after i've read a lot of comments in here(some i can't understand due to my poor English, sorry ) The most topic you talk about are:
1. This change will make ground breaking due to OP magic damage
This can’t be come true because…
As I already explain at first, INT stat also increase magic armor which mean 100 INT enemy have won’t deal 100% bonus damage to you because your magic armor will help you reduce that.
E.G. Torturer with the following end game items: Tablet, Null, Totem, Treads on INT: 14+15+35+10 = 74 bonus int plus INT from himself at level 25(121 int total) he will have 121 + 74 = 195 total INT = 195% bonus magic damage
(assume his base magic damage spell is 300 dmg, with 195% bonus he gain, he deal 300x1.95= 585 magic damage instead) sound terrible for STR and AGI heroes?
Well if he use that spell to The Dark Lady at level 25(16 + 1.9*25 + 20 = 83.5 total INT = 11.9 magic armor, plus 5 magic armor that every heroes have she will have 16.9 armor in total which = 49% magic damage reduction) so The Dark Lady take = 585 x ((100-49)/100) = 298 damage, which isn’t deal much damage compare with old formula
For old formula, The dark Lady will take 300 x .75(from her base magic armor) = 225 damage
So the damage difference between new and old formula is just = 298 – 225 = 73 damage(approximately ½ - 1 auto attack hit at late game)
Conclustion: this change won’t make magic damage Over Power for INT based heroes in my opinion as I explain above.


2. This change will make ground breaking due to OP Effect duration
Okay, 1% effect duration seem too much after I calculate by compare with Torturer with items at the first question(195 total int) and The Dark lady at level 25(83.5 total int), 195 – 83.5 = 111.5% effect duration seem too effective, 0.5% or 0.3% should be ok
Conclusion: 1% effect duration should be nerfed, and use 0.5 or 0.3 % or fitting number instead (or event nerf its base effect duration).

The reason I want this change is : I want to see HON difference from DOTA , why magic armor must be fix and why INT based heroes must too weak in late game(I’m one who play support quite often due to most people choose carry all the time) They should shinable at late game but not too OP by improve INT stat bonus which make them have more survivability to all effect that done by AGI or STR heroes(because they are fragile and low DPS), improve a bit of effect duration which make them do support role better than now.

And last, everything I suggest is changeable if you think it look bad, thank you for all comments.
End of my 2nd comment

[[TECH]Gorb]

Although it's a suggestion, approved for curiosity. I want to see where this thread goes.

Let's call this a social experiment with regards to any lurking games designers.

[[Mana]Farosarg]

Although it's a suggestion, approved for curiosity. I want to see where this thread goes.

Let's call this a social experiment with regards to any lurking games designers.

The point of the thread: Gorb having a boring evening, looking for good laughs over a completely dumb thread.

[PzKw]

Any ideas to rework anything fundamental like this will instantly be met with enormous scepticism by me. See, removing opportunity cost from nukers isn't necessarily a bad idea, it's just that there's no way to execute it without remaking literally every single hero who has nukes.

In concept, these ideas aren't necessarily bad (in concept, I happen to think they are, but that's a seperate argument), it's that the concept is very different from the execution of it, and there's 10 years of design that you'd have to throw out the window and start over to achieve this (and the section you'd be remaking happens to be one of the sections that functions the best - excepting the influence of spellshards).

THERE IS NO FONT LARGE ENOUGH FOR MY TDOWN.

[[weed]Mummpitz]

...................... this whould completely wipe the game balance... int heroes are balanced and not played the same way it can be done in LoL.. Pls think a little bit forward... i dont want to see HoN turning into what LoL is... Even that you statet good ideas at itself... Carries have a hard time early and if u make the Int-Based Heroes that much harder... its completely a NO GO !

[[LsE]Malefication]

Nice thread you approved there, Gorb. Can we get it closed now?

[[weed]Mummpitz]

i thnk its said enough... clsoe it

[[f13]`11411181]

Ok.​.

[[f13]SomethingOdd]

Why not, supports are so weak, they aren't tanks or carries, so this will make them much better.

What about heroes like arma, with a lot of int, he'd have a lot of MA, making him much more of a tank.

[[f13]zstarkey42]

You realize implementing something like this would complettly offset the game's balance and ask for revamps on every single hero skill and maybe even item in the long run? You are literally throwing years of design of the dota genre out of the window to create something that would not only completly change the way the game is played, how to build heros and teams and would probably take months if not years to perfect while presenting no evidence on how it would be for the better. Also, for a change this huge you provide very little arguments or reasoning other than 'it would be cool because LoL has it as well'. Your post is also full of assertions that lack any objective evidence... a post like this being allowed makes me lose credibility in this forum, no offense.

[[f13]SomethingOdd]

This is a great idea, we should test it in SBt, balance it, and add it ASAP.

[[IaF]Skyve]

See, here we kinda are in the forums for a game called HoN. This game is kinda based around certain things, like having primary attributes, and having each strength point give you +19 hp and some regen, much like int gives you 13 mana and 0.04 regen (or smth like that).

If you were to change/add functionality to intelligence, that alone would be a major intrusion into the existing system. But if you actually started to have an attribute scale with a heroes spells, you break another existing value that is in the game, and in the end we no longer have HoN (because not every hero is ment to scale that way).

[GregerMoek]

]http://i.imgur.com/dQB0s.jpg

Followed by

]http://i.imgur.com/0i87R.jpg
^wrong location for post

Comfort yourself with this

]http://i.imgur.com/21x2e.jpg[


All in all, if you wanna rework all balance in the game, sure this can be cool. Alternatively if you wanna make your own spin-off game, this might be cool. Otherwise, no. So much work. Soooo much work.

[[f13]SomethingOdd]

]http://i.imgur.com/dQB0s.jpg

Followed by

]http://i.imgur.com/0i87R.jpg
^wrong location for post

Comfort yourself with this

]http://i.imgur.com/21x2e.jpg[


All in all, if you wanna rework all balance in the game, sure this can be cool. Alternatively if you wanna make your own spin-off game, this might be cool. Otherwise, no. So much work. Soooo much work.

I lol'd so much

[changlingbob]

Crosspost from balance dump, where gorb is trying to claim he isn't trolling.

BALANCE RULES

1. AVOID SUGGESTIONS
Straight out suggestions, with no support behind them at all, will be moderated out, no questions asked. They bring nothing to the discussion and are simply a waste of effort from your part since they will be removed.
If you, through coherent and solid reasoning, show why a certain suggestion is the most favorable way to change something, I will not remove the post, but I would still ask you to try to leave the suggestion out if possible.

2. THREADS ARE APPROVED BY MODERATORS
The current version number must preface the topic of your post, eg. [1.3.3.7] Blacksmith.

Whether or not a certain topic is worthy of discussion is not decided by popularity, but by the quality of the opening post and the relevance of the topic. Before starting new threads you should try to make sure (by using the SEARCH function) that the specific topic has not recently been an item of discussion. If it was and a Moderator closed it there is probably a reason for that, which might make the topic unfit for discussion at the moment.
There can be a thread on anything regarding balance, as long as the foundation for argumentation is strong, or the issue is thoroughly explained. Remember though, just because a thread open post is long, doesn’t mean it is good.

Shame that the approved thread was:

• a suggestion
• has no analysis of what the suggestion would do, and that which did exist was shallow and poorly-conceived (wouldn't make int heroes OP is pretty obviously false, for example pyro would become god-tier overnight)
• of poor quality, as noted
• not regarding balance, except in that it would completely redefine how and where the game is balanced, being more of a design issue
• the foundational argument is not strong ('supports tail off, and this would stop that', entirely missing that that is exactly as intended)
• the issue is not thoroughly explained, in that there is no analysis of other stats, of opportunity costs, of other options
• is wildly inappropriate: the numbers listed actually do the exact opposite of the intent to make supports more relevant. 1% additional spell damage per int would around double magic damage on someone stacking int, while 1 MA per 7 int would give 14 MA on someone with 100 int, giving about 19.5 MA, which reduces damage taken by 54% (from 24% without); adding the +10 from shaman's gives 63% reduction
• I've now spent more time thinking about the suggestion than the OP did

And yet, the moderator who accepted this thread is telling us he did it to promote discussion on a topic is telling us that we have to follow his opinion of what a good discussion is, as noted per the forum rules, without actually having even considered the forum rules himself.

Also:

So what if you've had it before?

There's specifically a rule against that as well, that I neglected to mention above. Also also, if you want to have a discussion about ability scaling, perhaps you should submit a thread that follows the above rules, and wait for a moderator to approve it, assuming it meets the minimum standards outlined above.

[[f13]SomethingOdd]

Legitimate question: wouldn't this make harkon's extremely unbalanced?

[GregerMoek]

Among an assload of other things.

[[TECH]Gorb]

We have established that the suggestion itself is flawed, along with the conceptual argument it is based on.

Are we going to leave it at that?

[MushidoZ]

100 points of int gives 1 magic damage ignore maybe? (like spellshard) Other than that, anything too big like proposed by the original post would mean lots of rework on all heroes, and lots of balancing to be done. I also agree the int stat should be buffed up some (and why is strength so much better than intel never actually got through my head, numbers and effects all-together)

[_hidanboss]

1 more int point will deal 1% more magic dmg, if the player have 100 of int (kinesis and vind and pr get 100 easy) will have 100% more magic dmg! imagine pr uti with 100% more dmg! to me it's umbalanced.