Hello, I'd like to propose a reputation system in hopes of improving the community since it does receive a lot of hate (it's not that bad though but could use improvement). First of all, I don't think I'm a good example of a nice HoN player since I like to flame for small mistakes but I do want the players that are nice and helpful to be rewarded and for them to feel like they're needed.
I gave this a lot of thought and would like to post the results in this thread.
My goals for the system:
+ Positive only
I have heaps and heaps of reasons, real life analogies and deep thoughts on why the system should not involve anything "negative". No "Bad Karma" or "T-Downs" or "-"s of any sort or kind. There should be no way to be bad in this system. I want to fix the community not by punishing bad behavior but by rewarding good behavior. Again, I have tons of reasons, too many to list here. In other words: Nothing negative, deal with it.
+ Makes a difference
I don't want "rep" that is just for show. I want it to mean something and I want it to have an impact on players. This means that it should be simple and intuitive because otherwise nobody will bother. I also want it to carry a reward because otherwise nobody will care. The system should not be a waste of resources it should make the community better.
That being said, the details:
+ Each player is given 3 votes. After a vote has been used it takes 5 games for it to be restored.
+ After a Matchmaking (only) game is over a player can "T-Up" a person on any of the teams from the match stats screen.
+ It is possible to use all 3 votes on a single game.
After a game is over you can use up your "votes" to give out "T-Ups" to anyone you see fit. You can use 1, you can use all 3. After you do it takes 5 games to get them back (you get it on the 5th game, i.e. you vote at the end of your game, you play 4 more games afterwards, then when you play a 5th one you'll get the vote back at the end of it).
+ Using all 3 votes on a single game will reduce the cooldown from 5 games to 4.
If you're feeling generous and give out 3 T-Ups in a single game I'd like the system to reduce the cooldown of votes. This means people that are extra nice get to be nice a bit more.
- You cannot give a T-Up to a player who was in your group (TMM).
This is pretty self-explanatory, to prevent abuse. You can only T-Up someone if you've played a game with him and you can't T-Up your buddies.
Edit: Another potential rule to prevent abuse since one of the posters raised a concern?
- You have to be verified to give or receive T-Ups.
Although I don't really see people creating tons of new accounts just to give out free T-Ups to random people at a faster than normal rate. Frankly, I don't think this is needed.
+ Every T-Up is recorded on your stats page and gives you +5 silver coins.
+ Every 10 T-Ups give you 30 gold coins.
+ Amount of T-Ups shows in "quick stats" (when you hover over the stats icon in a game).
Players should be rewarded. I don't want a system where every T-Up gives you 1 silver coin and nobody gives a damn.
Q: Why 3 votes and a cooldown of 5 games?
I would say 3 votes is to give the player the option to reward several players on his team if he happens to meet a lot of nice people in a single game. However, I based 3/5 on the mathematical (or statistical?) average so to speak. On average you will win about 50% of your games. You are most likely to give out a T-Up when you've won a game (because you will feel nice). You will most likely give out 1 T-Up at a time. This means that on average in 5 games you will give out 2.5 T-Ups (relatively speaking). The choice for me then was: Do I make it 2/5 (2 votes max) or 3/5?
2/5 (below average) would force the players to be more careful with their votes. As a result people would be afraid to spend them and remain "maxed" on votes for potentially long periods of time. I don't want it to feel like that. I want the people to feel relatively free to give out positive karma without giving them complete freedom. I think an above average such as 3/5 would be perfect here as people are encouraged to spend more votes.
Q: Why can you T-Up players on the opposing team?
I thought about this and the conclusion I came to was: Well, why the hell not? Removing this possibility would only promote hate. Why not give the players the option? How good would it feel to receive a T-Up from someone on the enemy team?
Q: Would this be anonymous?
I believe this should be anonymous (makes it easier to give out T-Ups and adds that hidden "Omg someone likes me" factor to the equation) but it should tell you which team was the voter from (hellbourne/legion). If the voter feels the need he will let the player know himself.
Q: What if I receive a T-Up from the enemy team as a mockery i.e. "scrub you lost so hard noob here enjoy this T-Up dumpster"?
That would be one nice "mockery" :P
Q: What if instead of nice players T-Ups will go to players that carry well?
First of all, I don't think many people will T-Up a carry that flames his teammates (like me). A player would have to be a carry and a decent person. Secondly, why not? Some players think they deserve more for being really good players, often blaming the MMR system and bad teammates. If they are truly good players and nice teammates why not reward them, I think this would do the system much more good than harm!
Imagine a game where a player goes on a crazy streak (15-0) but still loses because of his teammates. Instead of flaming like he would do in 90% of cases he will be more inclined to be nice. Be nice when losing with a 15-0 score. Just think about it.
Q: 5 silver per T-Up and 30 gold per 10 T-Ups? Won't S2 go bankrupt?
No (I hope). I've already mentioned this but I want the system to make a difference, not be a weird unused system that holds no benefits.
If you receive 100 T-Ups you get 500 silver and 300 gold coins. Is that fair? Well, I think that if a person was nice to 100 other players (on average in 100 games) I think he deserves those coins. I want players that are nice to be paid for what they do. I want this to make a difference.
Nice players will enjoy extra perks. Some sales will potentially be lost because of this but arguably some sales will be gained because of an overall nicer less rage-inducing community. This also gives another argument for S2 in the "Can't buy everything in the shop" case. You can! Even EA, even premium alts, provided that you're a good guy.
Q: You suuure S2 won't go bankrupt?
Numbers can always be tweaked! I think numbers should be high on the system's release and afterwards adjusted to be lower if required (after people have started using the system). That being said there are a lot of complaints for silver prices being too high.
Q: What is the lowest reward you're willing to accept?
No less than 3 silver per T-Up and 10 gold for every 10 T-Ups.
Edit: As of the recent changes to HoN I can now agree to not giving a gold reward.
That about covers it. Hope this gets somewhere, please vote and tell me what you think.
Updated thoughts (Edit)
I've had time to read some feedback and I've also had some time to think the system over again so here are my updated thoughts.
The "T-Up exchanges" problem, I'm on the fence here. We would have to see if it would be a problem or not. An easy solution would be to make it reportable with RAP (the act of asking for an exchange or begging) with the consequences being reputation reduced to and frozen at 0 for a while. But that introduces something "negative" to the system and I'm not sure I want that.
For new players:
Another idea I had was kind of a new idea but the reputation system goes well with it. I thought of creating some kind of "message" that is sent to all teammates ingame saying "Player xyz is new to the game, show your support if you can!". Basically it would tell everyone on the team when there was a new player. This would hopefully make the first games much easier and much more pleasant for newbies so that people wouldn't complain how everyone was flaming them. I'm not sure what the criteria for this would be, like a certain number of games or something the player can select himself if he wishes to.
The idea with the reputation system is to give these "new" players a voting power of 2 or even 3. What this would mean is that a single T-Up would count as 2 or even 3 reputation. I think everybody understands what impact this would have.
I also found ghnurbles' idea of rewarding nice players by reducing their queue times interesting but that could separate the community a bit where high rep players would be a form of "elite" where finding games for the rest would be more difficult.
Last edited by SomaZ; 09-15-2012 at 11:26 AM.
I think the concept is fantastic, to get the HoN community to see good in people instead. However I doubt s2 would implement it in its current state. This is because offering gold coins as rewards would be too good to be true. This is because i can see me and my friends farming T-ups to get coins and making new accounts etc. to farm the coin. Great idea though .
Glad you like it! But I am curious, how would you be able to farm the coins? According to the system I proposed you can't T-Up anyone you queued with (in a group) and trying to abuse the MM system with a large number of fake accounts would require a tremendous amount of effort for at most 20-30 T-Ups on one of those fake accounts.
Personally, I think it's a great idea. People need to be rewarded for the good things they do, and people that do negative things should not go unpunished. This is a great way to deal with the current attitudes of some people and will change the way that they play (hopefully). I hope this does get implemented in the game as it will cause a lot more people to "play nice".
It's defently a great idea I think. Everytime I play I want to be nice to my teammates and so I want them to be nice to me too. The Problem is that the players normally don't know eachother and because of that they think "Hey they are just random guys and I will probably never meet one of them IRL, also I don't get anything when I'm nice to them and being an ******* is just way easier."
I voted no simply because this type of system has been implemented yet for a reason because it is far too easy to be abused. First of all you only get 12 coins max for winning a game(this isn't counting getting a immortal or annihilation because those happen very rarely) so you are basically upping the silver gain by 60% and as we all know S2 doesn't like that and we know this with recent price changes *cough cough* 3k silver alts * cough*.
And what is stop people from making a new account constantly and boost other peoples silver? If the game was not f2p then I would yes YES YES! But sadly it is not so No No NO.
There are ways to prevent abuse like making it verified only and numbers can be tweaked but I don't really see how people would just create new accounts to give out free coins to everyone. I mean, based on what you said right now you can already create new accounts and give people "free wins" but that's not really happening.
And silver gain is upped by roughly 25% (on average) and only for people that are nice, I don't see that as much of a problem.
Hmm... I think the major problem is that there will be too many smileys ingame. There are not just people who are nice and people who are not. I like to write something when its necessary and ofc in a polite tone, but just that wont be rewarded. So people will just try to be as friendly as possible without the meaning behind it, only for getting the T's. That is bad karma. Ofc u notice when theres someone whos really nice but in that case i couldnt give him a T without thinking 'was that pretended? or not?' and that is bad karma, too. Additionaly Im not sure that even the really nice ppl would be rewarded because most players might just give their Ts to the 'coolest' ppl -> in fact the ones with the best or atleast good stats or who won the game for them (and didnt flame). Its sure that ppl wont appreciate players with bad stats, this is simply a thing of emotion. Well if that makes the flamers stop hate, it would be good ofc, but there is always a 'dark' side. In that case it could create a 'wrong' politeness that could be annoying when overwhelming, and the reason of this is that the reward is too high. Imo a lesser reward would reduce it more to a thing of the good feeling when someone T'ed u up, and this is the essence and what we need, i think.
S2 could also react with some harder bans on flaming issues (and raise the infraction point limit on 3), but its definitely the better way to push nice ppl instead of punishing the bad, youre right
So anyways i think your idea would definitely be a great advantage to the game and the community, kind of a revolution
Hi , Somaz.
This is a very good idea cause for f2p players cannot get many alts heroes and annoucer cause they are low lvl and they get lower coins but this would be great for em and me too and for everybody thats nice to peole.That people should be rewarded ( not you cause you are raging all the time ) but its a great idea!
Great idea, but I would not reward this with gold coins.
If possible, I'd rather reward this by giving the player a priority in Queue or some similar benefit
Voting this system up!
I hope S2 will implement it as soon as possible!
i aint playing hon to jump in a pool of ragenerds,
i play hon to have a good gaming time.
losing is part of the game, but sadly most people cannot accept that fact and start blaming on everyone but themselves.
I like this one more than the Thumbs-up suggestion (a little ways down) which is proposing to have the matchmaking games be based on one's thumbs-up. This system, on the other hand, simply rewards players, as opposed to punishing those who are in a bracket where no one appreciates the role that a player has except for a semi carry. Are you a Sand Wraith? Flame. Are you a Magmus? Flame. Are you a Glacius? Flame. Only semi carries and hardcore gankers are ever appreciated. If your team consists of PM, Valk, FA, SS, and Devo, your stupid teammates will be really happy. And if you step out of line with a *gasp* SUPPORT or INITIATOR or HARD CARRY then you aren't going to get thumbs up and instead be placed with trolls who actually deserve to have their thumbs (or lack thereof).
On the other hand, this incentive based system is a lot more fluid, and if you don't get thumbs up then you simply just don't enjoy goodies, which is much better than having to play with trolls and feeders and perhaps even smurfs.
EDIT: Here we go right here: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...Up-quot-System
Last edited by chaos763; 07-02-2012 at 10:43 AM.
Ok, my story be short i voting ofcourse it's great idea but i thinking that s2 community won't accept your with giveaway gold with ''T-ups'', cuz it's to much risk with those gold coins you can get rich and 20% people could not donate cuz they have their own free gold. That's all i don't care you like it or not but it's my comment and i giving away my thoughts.
I really like the over-all idea of a reputation system. We all know the HoN community needs something to raise its self up. I do however take issue with some of the specifics of the proposal. First, there is no way S2 is going to give-out gold coins like that. Giving out gold coins is simply not an option. The whole purpose of gold coins is to make them distinct from the rewards that can be given-out in-game.
Another issue is the amount of rules involved in making your system work. I think your system WOULD do a fair job without needing too many tweaks, but it isn't an elegant solution, and there is a lot to be said for elegant solutions in gaming. IDK if I would advocate this example, but here is an example of a more elegant solution:
1. up-votes only work in MM
2. can't up-vote own group
3. up-votes transfer 2 silver from giver to recipient
4. you cannot up-vote someone who has just up-voted you
Only 4 rules and it meets all of the same objectives. It even meets extra objectives. --because another issue I have with the proposed system is the lack of value to a vote. In your system, it would be much more likely that 2 people could have the same number of total up-votes and have no where near the same level of nice-ness. The jackass could happen to have been in games with people who give-out up-votes freely, and the nice-guy could have happened to be in games with people who didn't have up-votes to give-out or were stingy with up-voting. The problems being the use of a quota system, the lack of cost to the up-voter, and the exception made to up-voters who give-out up-votes like they were nothing.
Side bar: What is the "T" supposed to stand for in T-up?
My final issue with the proposed system isn't a deal breaker for me, but good behavior and bad behavior are not mutually exclusive. If this system has a goal of reducing the bad behavior in our community, its not being met. Example: Guy 1 is always polite and never upgrades courier. Guy 2 is sometimes a dick and always upgrades courier. Guy 2 has higher reputation in your system. Guy 1 never gets upvotes because he never does anything that stands-out as up-vote worthy. Guy 2 sometimes gets up-votes in the rare games he ups the courier and doesn't act like a dick. While Guy 2 could be doing optimally better, he is comparatively successful.
The facebook "like" system does not have the goal of curbing bad behavior, thus its perfectly reasonable that they don't address bad behavior. Even the positive reinforcement method of training dogs involves negative reinforcers. Without addressing bad behavior directly, crucial information is being withheld from the actors exhibiting the bad behavior. Addressing only good behavior is voodoo pop psychology, and won't be as effective at culling bad behavior as a system that takes both into account.
Last edited by CobaltBlue; 07-10-2012 at 12:23 PM.
It's a nice idea, but I think giving out gold coins in any case should be a no-go.
People will always find a way to abuse these thinks, I can think of this one: "Hey random guy, give me t-up and I give you t-up too."
All in all I don't even see something good to come from this (except free coins). Why? If I look at some random stats, see how many t-ups he got, what does it tell me?
If I see a player with many t-ups, does it mean, he is automatically a friendly player (which it should reward for)? No, cause Karma systems like this, in this community, don't work like this. Unfortunately.
I really like this system you created, but I don't really see a brighter future with this one. I voted for "Yes" either way, since why not? It's not that it hurts to have it.
Vote for my Suggestions:
UI Update for HoN based on Strife Elements
Your system would only work if the community was already good and fixed (in which case there would be no need for it).
"There is no way S2 is going to give gold coins" - I simply don't care. The greed of others does not depend on me, I proposed a suggestion that I thought was fair.
In the example you provided Guy 1 is a "polite" douchebag ("I will politely not upgrade the courier and screw you guys over"), the Guy 2 is a nice guy inside but acts like he's not ("I hate you all noobs but here's a courier for you"). Guy 2 gets rewarded, working absolutely as intended.
Facebook analogy - you've said it yourself, it serves a different purpose, as such, there's not need to bring it to the argument. If anything, facebook is incredibly successful. Furthermore, bad behavior is already addressed in HoN and it's not working too well. No idea about the voodoo pop psychology, I have my own thoughts on things. I'll put it like this: I'm against punishing bad behavior but I'm not against fixing it.
Problem is people think "fixing" requires too much time and effort and "punishment" is the easy way out for them. The results, however, are accordingly bad.
1. Players doing this will mean that they are nice to each other, as such, the system will be working as intended. It is entirely possible for 2 people to like each other enough to be willing to exchange votes.
2. The system is anonymous and guarantee-free. People could easily not vote you back. As such, people are less likely to agree to the exchange, especially so if they don't like the player.
3. There is a voting limit. That makes it more likely for "exchanges" to be impossible and even less likely for people to agree to them.
With the above in mind the amount of abuse would be minimal compared to the amount of true votes. With the exchanges being incredibly risky people will instead use their votes in a "safe" way - T-Upping players that they liked.
If this type of abuse becomes a big concern a simple solution would be making the limit more strict. For example, if people can only vote once in 5 games exchanges become highly unlikely.
your logic is wrong.
Example: exchanges will be more likely to happen when you restrict the number of votes, if you have only 1 vote you will surely don't want to give it for free.
This would not make the game reward the nicer players as you say.
The votes from other players was discussed since closed beta and the outcome was the same every time: the vote system can not guarantee that the voters will vote with the right cause and restricting the system will cause more players to vote for their own gaining.
Anyway, i think the reward system is very good right now and the vote system doesn't belong here. I know that other games has it, but they don't give any rewards and they don't guarantee either that one players votes are for what they say they are.
The only potentially good thing i can think : "Hey, let me mid, i`ll give u a T-up" or "Buy me a bottle, me and my mates will give u a T" and the bad thing is that some will give the T but the majority won't, of course u can restrict the numbers of T-ups u can gain to 1 from 1 match, or 2 if you allow the other team to vote, but still this can be and it will be abused by players if you give them rewards just for votes. And surely this system wont reward nice people.
btw, in my opinion, just for being nice u don't get such rewards irl, u will get flowers if you are a woman or a kiss from a woman if you are a man(a nice good looking man ).
Last edited by Radw; 07-12-2012 at 09:59 PM.
Good idea. I disagree on gold money ... no gold money bonus ... it is a reputation system. Silver money could be enough.
- A Best Buddy Gamer is good idea ( t-up a player )
- 3 vote on 5 game ... no ... 1 vote for game, optional. Simplier.
- No poll show until it finished
- No gold bonus, only silver.
- You can't vote yourself
- To obtain an extra reputation bonus you must have a minimum of BiggerInt((Team Member - Team Leaver -1) /2) vote ( + X silver )
(i.e: Normal: 5-0-1/2 = 2 ... 1 leaver 5-1-1/2 = 1.5 -> 2 ... 2 Leavers 5-2-1/2=1 , 3 Player 3-0-1/2 = 1 )
This allow to encourage 3vs3 Map and to battle until the end.
- T-U is given in game ( before disconnects )
- Each T-U given is 1 silver ( only 1 ? ... yes )
- Each X T-U received is a rewards ( silver ? )
- Not available if you play in Groups ( TMM ) ( as most says )
- Reputation give you a priority in queue
So i think that if someone saves me or someone wards jungle and rune, or support upgrade courriers,or it wins game for me ... i'll give a T-up easy.