This is a constructive thread, so read it as such. I'm not about complaing how bad the old system is, this is a proposal for a new one. If you disagree with what I dont like about the old system, dont post. If you disagree with my idea, discuss. If you dont like reading dont post (I do it here for you "yo, wtf, tl;dr"), if you have ideas on how to get this easier to read, s2 relevant or better in any other way, rewrite it or send me suggestions, I'm grateful for that.
And for clarification, I use the word 'smurf' for both high rated players who create new accounts to "pubstomp" as well as low rated players who create a new account to go back up to 1500, whereas I usualy refer to the former as smurfs and to the later as "smurfs" (the later aren't really smurfs, I know that).
And for clarification, when I first wrote this I guess I was making a wrong assumption, namely that 1200 is the lowest rating possible. To give this post any meaning the suggestion should be "make new accounts start at 1200 and 1200 the lowest possible rating" (or 1000 and 1000 or whatever).
I play hon since 3 years now. Not competitive and not on a very high skill level but I know all heroes in and out, I know how to pick and how to play. I haven't been < 1500 in more than two years. I have 5 accounts. Some close to 1700, on this account I'm on my very low 1550 atm. I don't have time or the the commitment for a clan, I solo tmm. I'm happy when getting seated with peops like me.
If you dont wanna read about why I think that the current system is "not-so-great", just skip the following part and jump right to the next section with a bold title.
And here's what bugs me about the current rating system:
Today I was seated with a guy who picked ss sidelane then said "wtf why you ward there" when I warded the pull. 2 games later I was seated with a valk that fed devo 5 death mid (unintentionally) in less than 5 mins. These are new players, less than 100 games of hon/dota played, obviously. Such games become almost unwinable. I played 3 games this week where I went mid, gone 6-0 within 10 mins (yeah with ganks), but the overall score was 6-9. I won two of these, but it was pure luck to get seated vs guys that let you win mid to the point where you go 6-0 10 mins in. Generally speaking, peops with way different skill levels are seated in the 1450-1650 range. And as 1550 one has to expect to be seated with everything, even below 1450.
I like to play 1v1 and I do it fairly often, using normal mode for that purpose only. On each and every account I have I'm above 70% wining in 1v1 (good example, alt account highanrising, 89 1v1 played, 75% winning, 1663 tmr). When creating a new account I can go for 15 win streak from 1500 to 1600 without any problems. 1500 is not my skill level. So here the rating system does work pretty well for me. I play 15 matches in the ~1500 range, win every one, go 1600 and then some good player shows up and stops my streak. I now can go a little further and might even lose a bit more but still I'll my win rate is way above 50% and I progress to 1700. At some point players rated higher than me would stop me and there I'd reach my final fair rating.
So the current elo rating system works very well for me - for 1v1 games.
Just hon is a team game. And that means in an actual tmm situation there's more factors than just me picking / playing good. We all know these games where peops pick and you know it's all wrong. We all know these games where teammates die 15 times in 15 mins. And these factors can become so huge that I can barely see any correlation between my rating (can lose 1550+, can win 1700+), my plays (can pick great, run a 10 min 6-0 mid with ganks on both lanes and lose), and the team I get seated with (can be the 1500 I get seated with is actually better than me, can be the 1600 runs mid and feeds). Sure there's a tendency and yeah it's almost impossible for me to drop < 1500 but the span is huge. Now remember it's not about me complaining about this, but some initial explanations on why I think the rating system can be improved and that I find the issue is not the system itself (works well for 1v1) but the rating system in conjunction with the teams one gets in 1500+.
I described the symptoms, now let me describe what I find to be the main reason for all of this.
In the current system, if an 1500 drops to 1350 what would he do? Create a new account! 1200 thinking he's always having to play with bads? New account! 1500 but dont like your kd? New account! 1300 but finally you got too many leaves? New account! Feel like trolling? New account! Account suspended? Create a new account and troll with it, you're unbanned in 2 days anway! Hey fun story, one day tmm decided to seat me vs some clowns from fnatic (they're 2000+). They felt like pubstomping and streaming it, yay. How's that possible they show up in 1500? Ah right, new account! It all ends up in the 1500 bracket.
It was little of an issue when an account was 30$. With f2p this became inflationary.
Take some evidence and watch stats in 1500 games, 70% of the players have less than 500 games played, some are autoattacking, dont know how to creep block or ward a pull, others know every hero, hero combos, strats, positioning, ward spots, juke spots etcetc. They're all smurfs and lowbie "smurfs"! The 1500-1700 are a huge mess of players of all different skilllevels. A huge part is actually < 1500 "smurfs" that try to get into the > 1500 bracket this way. F2p and massive tmr gain based on the first few games on a new account did NO good to that. Tmr-compression did NO good to that.
Now this is how I think it can be improved:
I propose each and everyone starting at 1200 (or whatever the lowest rating possible is). Unverified, faster initial tmr gain etc. can be left untouched in my opinion.
Let's imagine such a ladder. New players and smurfs would be seated in the lowest bracket. It would be more annyoing to smurf because initially there would only be very new players, very bad players and smurfs. It would make smurfing much less interesting as there's no average players. It would take more games to get to a decent tmr. Every ok player could move through it with some good plays. At least I know I can play a "1200+ pub" and win it with much more than 80% probability, an 1300 with 70% an 1400 with 60%. Maybe I'd get stuck at 50% in 1500 and that would be fine with me.
- There would be no more incentive for players to create a new account to get their rating back up to 1500! No more free stat resets for low rated players, feeders, leavers and suspended players and thus no more low rated players, feeders, leavers and suspended players in the 1500 bracket.
- There would be less incentive to smurf for higherrated players as they'd have to go through all the lower brackets and spend ~100 games just to get 1500.
- And thus the 1450-1650 (the tmr range with by far the most players in it im sure) would finally become a place where peops of equal skill level would end up in instead of it beeing the junkyard of newerth.
Regarding the concern that "1200 would become the new 1500 bracket" please read #4 in this thread.
Last edited by KingWhite; 06-24-2012 at 12:51 AM.
wouldent really work well beacuse then 1000-1400 will just beacuse the new mmr hell. its been up for descussion several times and plenty of times s2 have come in and explained that it just wouldent work and this wouldent either.
Unfortunately most of the people that ruin your games are people that belong in the 1500s and are handicapped while playing (high/drunk) distracted by people talking to them, or have to leave for serious reasons. It might be a mistake to blame all your problems on people making new accounts, as getting to level 5 should put them where they belong - and if that's the 1500 bracket then they are just that level.
Sidenote: your definition of smurfing seems a little off, smurfs dont exist to get higher mmr, thats what their mains are for. They are there to stomp some 1500s into the ground and get 20 kd, this would not be helped by dropping the mmr to 1200 - in fact it would probably increase smurfing as there is an extra 300 rating to stomp through before you can't go 20/0 with mk every game.
I agree to some point that there is an issue if the solution is making new players start at the lowest rating possible (which is 1200 afaik), unverified. Obviously only accounts created after such a change of the system would be affected. Current accounts would keep their stats and tmr. Resetting tmr on all existing accounts would create the biggest mess ever. Anyway let's discuss the issue in detail:
Regarding the concern that 1500 would become the new 1200:
The new issue would be that the lowest bracket would become nearly unplayable for new players and it would be a mess of players of all skill levels that created new accounts. I agree to some point but let's have a close and detailed look at it:
scenario 1: > 1700 player creates an account. Goes unverified 1400 as he's way good, probably has lots of buddies to play with or a clan etc. He'll quickly move out of 1400, 1500, 1600 up to 1700 as he did before. It would be more stomp in the beginning and it would take longer. Thus the incentive to create a new account for a > 1700 player would be smaller (what is a good thing for all < 1700 rated players).
scenario 2: True long time 1500-1700 player (take me for example, I haven't been < 1500 in over 2 years and only rarely > 1700). As he's ok good, he most likely will somehow strugle himself to 1300 in unverified and then up to 1400's in verified. It won't be fun, it won't be great but just as I can win probably 80% of all 1200 pubs and 70% of all 1300's I'd finally end up 1500+. It would be a pain, but that only means less incentive to create a new account for a 1500-1700 player (what is a good thing for all <1500 players). Great news would be, there's now a bracket where the 1500-1700 player doesn't get affected by new accounts nomore! It's the best thing ever for 1500-1700 players.
scenario 3: 1300-1500 player, not good enough to stay in the 1500s. Due to the constant flow of new accounts everything would be swamped up from 1200 into their bracket and it wouldn't be too much fun to play there! And since 1200's might well be swamped up to 1400 he'll have a lot of noobs in it every there and then. Just, that's exactly how I imagine the situation in 1300 & 1400 right now. They already now get all the new accounts that are way bad and drop from 1500 unverified into ~1400 verified, they already now have the 1200's that somehow luck streak into 1300/1400 etcetc. Maybe a reader who's 1400 can comment on this. With the change they would see more smurfs, that's for sure. But would it hurt the 1300's to see more smurfs who struggle up to 1500-1700 resp > 1700? One thing is for sure, they at least could occasionally play with players that are better than they are and watch true carries carry etc. Maybe the 1300-1400 wouldn't be as balanced as they are now. But I'm 100% sure the 1300/1400 hell exists anyway already due to noobs ending in thier bracket after unverified. Now they only get the trash. With the change they would see good players too in their bracket.
Besides they could no longer create a new account and get a higher rating than what they currently have (what is a good thing for > 1500 players).
scenario 4: Truely new player, first games. He has no clue what's going on for the most part. He'll leave unverified at 1200. There's ton of stuff to learn. If he joins match making it'll be a drama for everyone. He'll stay in the lowest bracket (as he cannot drop further) and ruin games constantly. Just that's exactly what's happening in ~1500 unverified as well as in the 1200 bracket now! This is an issue, for the player himself as well as for everyone else in 1500 unverified and the 1200 bracket I'm sure. Maybe an 1300 reading this can comment on it. It is not a problem of where peops start in the tmr. It wouldnt get better, it wouldnt get worse wherever they start, they will ruin games. The problem with new players should be adressed completely differently, namely leading the ultra big "PLAY NOW" button to a more appropriate place than tmr, so peops who know hon just well enough to click "PLAY NOW" would no longer end up in match making.
Furthermore, these players are prone to make new accounts as they dont even know leaver stats will block them from tmm, so I'm sure every firsttimer will become a leaver at some point and create a new account. In the current system every firsttimer has at least 2 accounts he runs down from 1500 unverified to 1200. In the new system he'd probably end up with 2 accounts as well, just they'd both start at his well deserved rating, 1200.
I'm actually interested discussing these concerns in detail as I think this has to be discussed to make the community and s2 willing to take a change. From my point of view the disadvantages seem to be almost neglible when taking a closer look.
now let me stress again the importance of decreasing the incentive to create new accounts:
The very core of the rating system (1000-2000 hell) issue
I think there's one point where we all agree: Tmr is a good system to represent individual skill of a player in a teambased game. 1800 are always better than 1200, no doubt. There's one basic issue with it. It's that it takes time to show the true rating of a player. The rating of a player after 5 games might be completely inaccurate. But after a certain amount of games it'll start to work. The more games the player has played the closer he gets to his correct tmr. Old news I know, but let's take a closer look:
If for example a 1800 player has 500 games played, it might well be that after 1000 games he'll end at 1900, after 2000 games at 1950, and after 10000 games at 1975. And I'm not talking about he winning a little more tmr every game for weird reasons while actually beeing stuck at 50% winning. I'm talking about 51% winning at an 1800 rating, 50.5% winning at a 1900 rating, and 50.1% winning at 1950. It takes a lot of games to make the 0.1% difference show up. Long story short, the bigger the number of games played the more accurate the rating.
Now we have to consider 0.1% beeing really low, to the point where external influence becomes statisticly relevant (in other words they're likely to be > 0.1% even when seating 10 perfectly equally skilled players). There's plenty of external influences in hon: internet disconnects, leaving, bugs or luck just to name a few have an impact on the game. That's not a bad thing and cannot be changed to the good or the bad. It belongs to hon and there's no system that ever that can be better than hon.
Anyway, let's imagine this whole system, but with the limit that no new accounts could be added. Each account in this closed system finds its matching tmr over time. After 2000 games on each account we'd probably have an exact rating for every individual in the system down to 0.1%. Once each account arrived there, tmr would seat equaly skilled players all day long.
This is what happens in our system to some degree. But if you watch accounts in tmm you will realize that rarely do players have 2000 games played. Most accounts show barely 500. What does this mean? It basicly means they are not at their justified tmr yet, may it be low or high or just average. The only solution to instantly recover from this flaw is to stop the creation of new accounts completely (yeah I know that's not an option, read on before you go wild).
The creation of new accounts obviously cannot be stoped. There's justified needs for new accounts (truely new player, players with different clans etc). But there should be no incentive for players who already own an account to create a new one for doubtful reasons (low rated players to get back to a better rating, high rated players to smurf, leavers to be able to tmm or suspended players to play anyway).
It's funny enough that when I started this thread with the 1400/1500/1500 hell in mind, it didn't take to long untill an 1800 player showed up and stated "we have these issues too". And altho there they seem to look a little different and less severe than in the 1500 range, they obviously suffer from players who "didn't arrive" at their optimal tmr yet. These new accounts ruin games in every tmr range.
What to do against? As the creation of new accounts can't be stopped completely, the incentive to create new accounts has to be decreased drastically. At the moment, it's not only fun to create new accounts, in many cases it's more free tmr than you can gain in 40 games (1300 player), or a faster leaver stat reset than in 100 pubs or just a second of wait compared to 2 days of waiting for the suspension to wear of. All the systems that are supposed to improve game play suffer from the current situation (tmr, leaver stats, suspensions).
Any approach to improve the rating system imo should focus on this aspect of decreasing the incentive for players to create new accounts.
And if you now think that I overrate this, think again. How many players who didn't have 2000 games played and "didn't arrive at their justified tmr yet" you had in your last 10 games. Think about how much fun it was to play with em. Do you have 2000 games played yourself? In my opinion this thread is worth the effort, because even if I spend 1 hour with writing these, in the next game I'll have a guy with 200 games played stomping or throwing wasting an hour of my gaming time. Imo let's make the effort to propose a change.
Last edited by KingWhite; 06-24-2012 at 03:45 AM.
What you fail to understand is that the 1500 rating is the average rating. The average player is around 15xx-16xx and Whereever u put the starting MMR around there will the average player be.
Also if u change the starting MMR you will have to compress everyone AGAIN because otherwise MMR would be unaccurate
U simply cant put them at the bottom? It's an elo system, if u can't understand how it works U shouldn't even be looking for a solution.
U can't put the starting MMR at the bottom of the ladder either, coz there will always be players that belong lower then the starting MMR.
Maybe i misunderstand the current system. I thought there would be a low limt in the current system. When i wrote my sugestion i did it with this assumption (thought 1200 would be the low limit). Can someone clarify?
Well if there's no low limit, reread my suggestion as "make new accounts start at 1200 and 1200 the lowest possible rating" (or 1000 or whatever). What would mean one couldnt drop bellow 1200 even when losing.
And @redruby: "you shouldnt even be looking for a solution" (for wathever reason) is like the most stupid thing someone ever said to me, honestly. No idea how narrowminded one has to be to even manage to think of such a sentence. I for my part fail to follow your thought process. But maybe that's exactly the the problem, there was no thought process at all but just the urge to pove that i'm an idiot and you're not? If so, what about you sit down and think for a bit how the system could be improved and issues that arguably exist could be fixed? But beware, you might make a wrong assumption, and that would make u look like quite an idiot.
Last edited by KingWhite; 06-22-2012 at 01:31 AM.
I agree with your idea - there is definitely some problems with the current system.
But I am not sure about the math. (I hope I can think of something that helps)
The actual skill range from 1500-1700 is too random.
I have been playing for 2 years, and my average level is 1600+.
Maybe I am not a pro, but I see a lot of 1600 even 1700 pink/blue noobs all the time.
KDR is useless too, you can just ks and be a ***** to get KDR.
There is rarely a close game - people trolling/afk at game 20 minutes when someone got fed with kills. Ward and staying together could still turn the game around, but not going to happen.
Since MMR and KDR is useless to match game and to judge player level, I do think that there is a necessity to have a new ranking system.
Also, I have some ideas on stats tracking and silver coin rewards that I believe it will point out the importance of supports.
If you are interested, welcome to take a look.
Last edited by pwderek; 06-22-2012 at 05:22 AM.
There needs to be a limit at the bottom. Say 1200. And when you make a new account you are 1200 as well as if you lose enough games you are 1200 but these two people cannot play with each other. If the new acc at 1200 has a consistently high winning % they should be taking off unverified and put into verified.. That would be to stop smurfs.. If the new acc at 1200 has a low winning %, then after a good sum of games they should be put into verified.. say 200 games.. That would be to stop them from being paired with noobs. People will still be able to smurf, but they can't just constantly stomp lowbies... they will be moved to verified quicker that way.