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I was reading some guides about 5 man teams in which each has a role.ex:http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...ame-strategies hereis ganker and i know most of their roles but where do i find a list of each hero's role?i didn't know until recently that valk is a semicarry or hammer can play support too.there is that list in the shop but it doesn't say who can fullfill what role?ex:tort is semicarry,support,semi-tank??i'd like a list of all 100 heroes not only these 5.
You can play any hero as whatever you want. Each hero is just better at some things. Just visualize it in your head. Can you see it work? Try it out. You can't see it work? Maybe it works anyway.
This just has to do with how well you understand the game. I have supported for 2 years now and I have made
and
support work, just because the situation called for it.
i don't feel like making astrolabe on those 3.the idea is that i don't exactly know what items to make on which heroes.this is purely dependent on the game,but anyway.i had 2 recent games,one with tort and one with hag.all i did was ward and i was underleveled and with no items(since we had no support).i feel like i miss the point.i'd like to watch competitive replays but i don't know how it actually works or who organizes all those matches and their structure.
You can hit me up ingame, i will answer all your questionsthey need to be a little more specific than these
this vids good
In this world gone mad, we won't spank the EM players, the EM players will spank us.
then what role does parasite have?how about artillery?semicarry or carry?bombardier?i also heard soul reaper is semicarry.where do you guys know all these?
It's very hard to put heroes in strict boxes and most can be played in any way you see fit in a particular game. You will only learn each heroes capabilities strengths/weaknesses by playing lots of games i.e. practise.Originally Posted by Clytemnestra
parasite: roaming gank/support
artillery: carry/push/counterpush
bombadier: support/gank
soulreaper: support/tank-carry
well you said it is hard to put them in strict boxes,but what you did there is actually put each of them in a certain category.but i guess it is definetly harder to carry a team with artilllery rather than valk or mb.
so which heroes are item-dependant and which are not?i heard that those that don't need items are semi-carries and those that need are carries.
which are skill dependant and which are not?i heard something about heroes that should go mid are those who need level to be effective.but aren't all the heroes level-dependant?
As a rule, all heroes are item dependent. The only exceptions are very hard supports such as demented shaman or empath who can survive but also greatly improve their effectiveness as a result of items. The reason for this is because they do not rely on auto attacks to aid in the fights and their abilities only benefit from levels. Pretty much any hero who needs to attack or cast offensive spells greatly benefits from items and is much less effective if he or she cannot farm.
For example, people often say that a hero like Monkey King doesn't need items to be strong because his combo is so strong from the get go. I would argue that this is simply not true. If he does not get the health items (a helm or frostburn or souls) to stay in a fight and the survivability items (nullstone or shroud) to keep opponents away he is one of the weakest heroes in the game. Try to think of items like they are the focus of the game. It's not something that you want, they are what you need to get. Often, players focus on hero kills or levels but more often then not you are going to win a game by getting last hits and getting items that improve your hero.
Last edited by CallMeCold; 05-30-2012 at 10:06 AM.
well what makes mk a carry or semicarry or whatever,relevant lategame is his 1st skill which deals a portion of his basedamage so i guess you need to either increase that,or decrease the enemy defence aka armor.not only that,but he is squishy,or half squishy and has a pseudo-blink and as a carry/semicarry w/e in order to deal damage he needs to survive.but isn't the support's job to help him survive?i find jera a good option(make sure my carry doesn't die) since he can make a carry immune to spells and damage(also regen a bit),heal(but these can be dispelled,but if they don't have counters that means you won the game.).or if you have a demented,demented can ult the enemy and mk.that lowers their armor and mk can make savage mace/riftshards/fburn instead of sb and sols.
how about glacius?i see him"not carry glacius",as he doesn't autoattack later,but he is surely item-dependant since he needs to survive in order to ult or to help his team.they say glacius is all about wards.i usually make tablet on him if i get the money,and try not to ult in 5v5 teamfights if i don't have shrunken/void talisman.should i sacrifice myself to deal damage with my ult or just stay back and cast my 1st and 2nd,maybe tablet or w/e item i have?
and what are initiators?first in mind are pebb/temp/dw,whatever.but even other can initiate,like valk with an arrow or ult,maybe other carries.even demented can cast his ult and tell them "go back,you have low armor don't come towards us or we kill you with our armadon!"
Last edited by Clytemnestra; 05-30-2012 at 11:28 AM.
Add me as a friend ingame. Hag, torturer and parasite are 3 of my favourite heroes, and you can watch me play them. If you just feel like watching me play then you can request quite literally ANY hero and I will show you how they are played. I'm by no means the best player in terms of MMR but this is largely due to having spent a lot of time learning as many heroes as possible rather than sticking with any for a long period of time. I recently started playing more with the heroes I enjoyed more and have been playing the hell out of hag recently.
http://www.nigmanoname.com/prodex.html found this and it has some diagrams which i remember i saw somewhere but dunno exact where.those diagrams tell each hero role.pretty nice
Unfortunately, the real distinguishing between hero roles comes only with experience.well you said it is hard to put them in strict boxes,but what you did there is actually put each of them in a certain category.but i guess it is definetly harder to carry a team with artilllery rather than valk or mb.
so which heroes are item-dependant and which are not?i heard that those that don't need items are semi-carries and those that need are carries.
which are skill dependant and which are not?i heard something about heroes that should go mid are those who need level to be effective.but aren't all the heroes level-dependant?
The difference between a hard carry and semi-carry does not lie in the need for items but in the "hardness of carrying" itself. You need to call for you experience here: which hero do you find more havoc-wrecking late game - magebane or valkyrie? You see, the difference between those is in their abilities and stats. Magebane has a huge stat gain, meaning that each level is a big benefit for him. He is the most swiftly attacking melee hero in the game. He also has a insanely strong steroid skill (steroid skill meaning a skill that passively boosts his damage and scales along to the late game) - mana burn. This skill basically adds damage basing on enemy mana pool. Because Magebane's attack speed increases drastically towards late game and enemy mana pools also increase - this means that this steroid skill scales insanely well into late game. This is why a late Magebane basically rapes everything on his way. Valkyrie does not have such a steroid skill, the only attack-damage-boosting ability she has is her leap which increases her attack speed a bit but that does not scale into late game as well as Magebane's steroid does.
Now you could ask: why is it so unbalanced, Magebane is so strong and scales so well and Valkyrie does not? The answer is - because Valkyrie was provided very powerful utility skills instead (one of the longest stuns in the game and a 7s invisibility for the whole team) which makes her extremely useful besides dealing damage. Magebane skills, however, include the mentioned steroid skill, an escape mechanism (Blink) and some other passive. The only active skill he has is his ultimate which synergizes with his steroid (as the steroid drains the mana and ultimate destroys low mana targets) - therefore Magebane has bascially zero utility skills, he is only a damage-output hero.
Valkyrie is a semi-carry because, despite her great utility skills, she has a mediocre steroid and not-the-worst stat gain per level, which means that she can carry the game if necessary but she surely won't squeeze nearly as much damage output as Magebane.
For reference, some other hard carries are: Dark Lady (lots of steroid skills), The Madman (steroid skill - passive crit), Swiftblade (steroid - passive crit), Maliken (steroid - passive attack speed boost).
And some other semi-carries are: Pyromancer (steroid - attack speed boost after cast), Wretched Hag (no steroid but decent stat gain)
I hope this helps you understand the hard vs semi carry difference a bit better.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned, this all comes with experience. You can of course try to memorize all this but what's the point? You should learn the "basic" roles very fast and the more "hidden" roles will reveal themselves with experience.
Never listen to what hero roles people below 1650 assign to certain heroes. They really have very basic idea about the game while thinking they are the smartest players alive. Those people will tell you that Pollywog is a hard support and Pyromancer is a hard support as well. Heck, I even heard from a 1630+ player that Puppet Master is a support hero.
You can try Prodex (link in previous posts) but it is pretty outdated as far as I know.
The best way I know of getting to know hero roles is to ask someone competent and friendly. Competent meaning at least 1680+.
1.then why aluna is called carry?
2.i know puppet is a carry since he got that crit+ult,but what if he is the only int in the team,and there are already a few carries?
3.as for prodex,there is a mod http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...odex-Data-Set) made from it,and i find it very nice.
1. Aluna's stun provides an attackspeed bonus. Aluna fits in to the semicarry role.
2. Depends on the other heroes. Puppet can support, but is better played as a carry. (I have had a game where I was Sil, and I was forced to lane with a TDL. I gave her all the farm while I kept on harrassing the lane and their jungle. Do play what your team needs.)
Please note that intelligence heroes are not always support and support are not always intelligence. Think about Puppetmaster, Andromeda and Accursed.
but andromeda and accursed can somehow carry too,depending on the teams ofcourse.
Andromeda is basically a carry in DOTA but in HoN she was designed to be a support mainly by nerfing her stat gains. She has great carrying skills but her stat gain is not the best so other heroes just carry better.
Aluna is a semi-carry because her stun is a kind of steroid. It boosts her attack speed, however it scales kinda bad. It also leaves her with only one possible carrying route: attack speed proc chance items.
INT doesn't mean anything when deciding who should buy wards. It is just that wards should be bought by heroes who's skills do not scale with items. In other words, heroes who's skills are equally relevant despite anything. Such heroes are Hammerstorm for example, who's stun is just as useful no matter what items he has.
It happens just that most of such heroes are INT heroes (mainly nukers and supports) so noobs started thinking that INT = support in every case and they started propagating that idea, other noobs received it and so it became an unquestionable axiomat among noobs that every INT hero should buy wards.
Which is obviously bullshit. Hammerstorm constitutes a great warder and he is STR. Same case with Andromeda, and she is AGI.
So, who should ward in a team of 4 carries and a Puppet Master? Well this is simple. Everyone should. Because there are 5 carries in the team the weight of warding should be split between all of them. 100g lost once every 10-15 minutes will not hinder anybody's farm, neither will 20s lost in placing the ward every 10-15 minutes.
The funny thing is however that such teamwork requires competent players and I cannot imagine competent players picking 5 carries, therefore the described situation is basically completely fictional.
If your team has 5 carries, probably each and one of you is an incompetent scrub and you are therefore screwed unless the enemy team is even worse than you (hard to imagine) and let's you somehow farm.
then how about defiler?her skills deal the same damage,no matter what items she has.or torturer.i was the only int/non-carry from my team and they asked me to ward.
also regarding hammer,i do agree he doesn't need items to do his stun,but isn't his ult some kind of steroid?and his 2nd skill something to help him farm?isn't he more someking of carry?you have no idea what sven did many times in dota,when he carried his team to victory.
Last edited by healplease; 06-06-2012 at 01:51 PM.
I'll start from the end.
Yes I do have an idea what Sven did in DOTA. And yes you are right, Hammerstorm's ultimate is a steroid and a rather strong one. His stun, however, still is item-independent which makes him viable for both roles. So it just depends on which role you wanna play. You can go carry route of course but he is also a great example of a hero that can be a warder. He won't carry then though, so you have to decide about what you are going to do with him at the start and inform your team about it.
You are actually a bit wrong with defiler saying that her skills deal damage no matter what she has. Her nuke and silence are item independent but her power lies in the ultimate. It's physical damage, meaning that it benefits from items decreasing armor. Not only that, her ultimate is like mock - the longer you stay around, the more damage it deals. This means that survivability items on Defiler increase her ultimate damage output greatly. She can be played as a carry in the same way as Armadon can - by investing in survivability and hoping that the enemies are just not skilled enough to take her down before her aoe takes them down. Additionally she is a great pusher and has a powerful silence. She can be, therefore, played as a warder since her silence will always stay relevant and so will her pushing power but that would be a bit of a waste and I, personally, would avoid that. But it is possible.
Torturer is of the same sort - his ultimate requires him to build some survivability as he needs to get into short range and stay there alive for quite a few seconds. But he also needs mana sustaining and regaining items (this is why Bloodstone was very popular on him in DOTA and why ppl tend to build Sacrificial Stone on Torturer sometimes - because this item provides both survivability - HP - and HP/MP regeneration). Overall, he is quite an item intensive hero, he needs a lot of them to squeeze the fullest out of him. Because of this I would strongly advice to avoid going warder route as him. It is possible though, as his stun, nuke and pushing power will always stay relevant but there is just so much more he can accomplish if he is allowed to get those items he needs. If it is necessary though... having wards is almost more important.
As someone once said, wards and homecoming stones are the cheapest and the most overpowered items in this game.
Last edited by Myzreal; 06-06-2012 at 06:19 PM.
you said that bloddstone is popular in dota,but why isn't sacrificial stone good here in hon?
as for wards,it is quite hard when your team looks something like panda,madman,valk,armadon and you are torturer.a good organised team will buy 1 ward each,so 100g from each player won't be quite hard to get,but in solo queue or w/e,you get randoms which will NOT understand these.
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