I see nymphora and torturer are picked in competitive.How do you maximize their usefulness?Torturer is very squishy early,and even after getting some items he still dies easy,unless you got something like a tempest.How do you play him effective?And instead of nymph i can get demented as he is much useful.Or is nymphora picked because of her ultimate?
Nymph allows for constant spell spam. There are two ways you can lane:
- Build double-stun and a bit of mana so-as to constantly harass with it
- Focus on Agonising Bonds and Grace. Tort will be able to use it pretty much every time it's off cooldown after level 3 and both Nymph and Tort will still have a level in their stuns so they can go for double kills very easily
Agonising Bonds puts out a stupidly high amount of damage early. Nymph gives a stupidly high amount of mana. Tort/Nymph is bestest <3
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As said above, Torturer is a good early game hero if he has mana. Nymph provides that, and packs a good stun as well.
Agonizing Bonds is indeed the way to go, with a level in both stuns...
Torturer bonds a creep, both lane opponents are close to each other and both stuns will hit, usually resuling in a lot of damage or even a doubletap.
i wasn't talking about them in the same lane.I was talking about the separately,or in separate teams.And i know in the lane they might be nice,but what about later when they are focused?When i nymph i am usually charged by ramp or combo-ed by pebb.i know i can make some items to counter them but still...
Also some say that tort is semi-carry.how come?since he does insane aoe damage?even with behe's heart he is still squishy,especially if team doesn't follow you.Most of good enemies will focus you from the start because they either find you squisy and easy to kill(noobs do this) or because they know you deal lots of dps(pros know this).
how do you resist through the game with these 2?
Get a HotBL on tort and split it later into Behe and Null or just into a sac stone if you're underfarmed, since you'll have two of the components already and it's got a relatively cheap build up (actually one of the only heroes it's viable on). Build survivability, mobility and mana regen on tort.
There's my guide:
Skill build is situational. I like to have 1 in each by level 3, and I normally max chain reaction first to increase the AOE and duration of the stun (and damage obviously) however often it's beneficial to max bonds first, and on rare occasions if you want to push towers early, or you're solo against double melee then impalement first is an option for pushing and stopping them from diving you/killing them if they do.
Tort is actually a semi tank since his skills require him to be right on top of the enemy, you need to build tanky, and because he's very mana intensive you have to build mana regen. For chasing, escaping, initiating, staying in the fight and general utility/mobility I like to build ghosts, PK and push stick (the best item in the game IMO). And late game post haste is a go to item so you don't need a TP slot.
Core is always ghosts, HotBL and RoS, I also always get grave locket as the stats are GREAT for the really low price on any mana intensive/squishy heroes. As it says in the guide you can pick up a chalice and lifetube if you're having real problems getting any gold, and hold off on the HotBL and skip the RoS. If you're mid bottle should be your first pick up. Shrunken is often great but not always necessary. It's certainly core if they have a large amount of magic burst/stun. Next you get push stick, it's like a pseudo-blink with good stats, particularly INT. Then usually PK, and, as I said before, you get ideally Behe and Null from your HotBL, but get Sac instead if you're struggling for cash, since you can get 3 of the components from splitting HotBL and RoS. You can get all 3 if you're completely dominating and have a ridiculous amount of money.
Ask someone else about nymph, I rarely play her. As a general rule get 1 in each skill by 3, USUALLY if you're supporting, you'll be supporting someone like pebbles/tort, who are mana intensive nukers, so you will max grace first. If you're supporting a Ra, for example, or a less mana intensive hero, maxing pod first for saving/damage (and in Ra's case, regen) will be more beneficial.
In terms of items, I just go a standard support build, with Striders, Psupply, Grave locket, Bracer->Astrolabe, Push stick with spare slots for wards, TP and situational/late game items. Both of these heroes require good positioning and awareness, but that's pretty much just general HoN knowledge.
Last edited by TattyJangles; 05-22-2012 at 11:58 AM.
I can't answer for Nymphora, as I prefer Demented Shaman myself, in a lot more situations, but for Torturer it's my domain.
Basically, you play an effective Torturer by having good positionning. You'll notice a lot of players like to pick up a Tablet of Command on Torturer and Ghost Marchers so they are exactly where they want to be, when they want to be. Indeed, he dies easily, but he also has a skill that approaches all ennemies toward each others, and an AoE stun that has a decent duration. Comboing that with other stuns and his ultimate is what makes him that good.
Of course on such a weak (HP) hero, you want to build up survivability items like mentionned above, Helm of the Black Legion, Shrunken Head, even Insanitarius can work because of how burst you are.
Torturer is my most played hero, by far, here's the items I go almost each games ; Bottle (if mid), Mana Battery, Ghost Marchers (The quicker the better), Tablet of Command, Shrunken Head, Axe of the Malphai, Behemoth Heart (Or Sac stone if I can't farm) Frostfield's Plate.
Imo torturer should be played as a solo cause he benefits from lvls so much and is extremely good in 1v1 situation. I always max bonds and stun and then impale+ult. Bonds are so good harras and ck tool, you can last hit every creep from a wave and harras your opponent in the same time. My item build usually goes like this and ive had the most succes with this build. Some early stats and regen depending if im gonna get fast bottle or in no rush. Generally I buy 2 totems, +3 int item and tangos. Then bottle, red boots, psupply, rott and finally steams + tablet, these are my core items. I like to build steams because torturer needs to be tanky and steam swapping is pretty strong. Sometimes I replace steams with armor boots, but thats a rare occasion. After core you should be getting situational items like bkb, null, hex, nomes etc.. Usually my late game build looks like this travels, tablet, hf, hex, bkb and heart/pk.
Last edited by Ackwell1; 05-22-2012 at 01:27 PM.
As a Nymphora you would like to level Grace (mana) and Zeal (stun). It depends on your lane partner which one of those 2 skills should be maxed first - if he is mana intensive (the usual) then max Grace first, if he is a carry whom you babysit and is not really that offensive then max Zeal first and start being offensive yourself - go into harassing the enemy and if they attempt to respond with harassing - stun their asses. It deals really decent damage and with level 1-2 Grace you can mana yourself to provide a constant decent nuke (as far as you can land the stuns properly). Be sure to avoid creeps when you harass with the stun so you don't push the lane.
If you lane with a mana intensive harasser your role is to provide mana to him and open fights with your stun (or followup stun if he initiates first). Infinite mana + reliable multi target stun is really strong.
Never go for early heal, that's just a waste of Nymphora's potential. If you max heal first, you waste a lot of great opportunities. If you max other skills and take 1 in heal it's also a waste since it heals amazingly weak and is pretty hard to land without good communication.
Once you have your ultimate (take it on level 6) - pay attention to other lanes. If you see you can help - go for it. Do not hesitate as your TP takes a long time so time is of the essence. If there is a chance you can save your allies and/or kill the enemies - go for it.
If you have a pebbles or other great ganker, use your ultimate to gank farming targets (enemy carries). Be sure to teleport into the woods right next to them - in such a way that they do not see your TP animation. Make sure you and the ganker are able to get out of the tries (unless he has a PK and u got a tablet). Your stun is really long range so use it from the trees so the tip of it reached your target. That way he gets stunned before he can even notice your gank and has no way of escaping. Your stun is usually long enough to allow Pebbles or someone else to followup and kill him.
Nymphora's benefits over other supports is that she can skip gold on mana-replenishing items. You don't need a bottle, nor chalice, nor RoT, nor RoS, anything of that. She can also skip gold on homecoming stones due to her ultimate.
After you provided wards and upgraded the courier go for Steamboots - ALWAYS. Never go Striders - as a support one of your main roles is to NOT feed so you need every little survivability you can grab. After that go Vestments if necessary (make sure wards are provided before you get any of those items). Then you can consider going Astrolabe because your heal is not the best one and it won't save an ally in really dire situation. Planting your heal and using Astrolabe ensures his survival and boosts the heal. What you really need though is Tablet of Command so decide whether you can afford to go Astrolabe first (you don't die so you got enough gold - go for it) or should you skip Astro and go Tablet immediately (your "farm" is not so good - you die a lot).
i usually make the bracer as it gives me hp/stats and i can upgrade it to astrolabe.also a minor totem seems nice too.(or 3 for astrolabe+p.supply)tablet seems a very nice counter to rampage/pred etc. so i guess that is core item,and i think this is my mistake.I never tought her heal might be useless early(as i tought it might save your lane partner if he goes too agressive(it also damages opponents that attack him)).As for boots,everytime i see nymph with striders i just know she will die easy.but trying to make so many items+wards+not getting killed is just hard farming 950 for steamboots.I'd rather get wards,ward where me and the lane partner farm so we don't get ganked and try to build items slowly.obvious an invisible dw can easy kill us/me but that is somehow rare.
As for torturer,i will consider getting tablet on him too.Lately,i go for tablet on many heroes,i even made it on dw for fun(and it was quite nice since i was against a pred,since pkey wouldn't save me from him).Luckily, a brown scout(you got it!) which i underestimated,yet tryed to give as much farm as i could carried us and we won.Coming back to torturer,is it a good idea to have sac stone and behe's heart at the same time?meaning i am low on cash i go sac stone,then i get some kills and get axe of malphai.or is taht waste gold and rather get sheep?I do think is situational,but a sheep might prove more useful for the team as later the carry should kill the enemy and not my aoe,and disabling an enemy for 2.5s is better than me with lots of hp,spamming damage that will be absorbed by their barrier and magic armor.if i max stun and bonds,should i get ult at lvl 9 or max impalement 1st?1200 physical damage to someone who chases me sounds pretty nice if i catch him alone.He will be sorry for trying to kill me but it is so situational(also it's nice for pushing towers/too bad for the recent nerf)
Last edited by Clytemnestra; 05-22-2012 at 05:33 PM.
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I guess going heal on Nymphora first might be viable in some situations but I just can't see it right. Every support hero has a specific role at which he excels and in case of Nymphora it's the sustainability of mana rather than HP. If you want to be a healing/ass-saving babysitter just go for Demented Shaman - he does the job so much better than Nymphora does.
Am I the only one who lacks a good and comprehensible "How to support properly" guide on these forums just to make all those strider-building Monarchs' vanish from the world forever? :C
Torturer outdamages everything so you don't need any defense items you just need mobility. For mid to high level players mobility = survivability.
Choose one: Tablet, Portal Key, Post Haste
Choose two: Storm Spirit, Nome's Wisdom, Grave Locket, Mana Ring
Choose two: Nullstone, Sheepstick, Sacraficial Stone, Shrunken Head
Nymphora is not more or less tanky compared to other supports. Demented Shaman is harder to die with.
Demented Shaman is better for all skill levels while Nymphora is more difficult to play outside of the higher brackets.
I can't really give advice for Nymph that doesn't apply to every support except, always chill with a ganker so you can ulti to pick up free kills.
Last edited by Cranium; 05-23-2012 at 09:06 AM.
You have to play a lot, there's no other way to learn how to survive. Try publics first
1) Play supports who do not have to man up and kill everyone in the team fight like a carry. You have to learn how to sit at the back and only stay close enough to cast spells and support your allies without getting picked off.
2) Play ALOT of games. Nothing beats lots of experience (number of games played not xp lol). The more you play the more you will not feed and then you can make your way to playing those squishy agi rape carries =)
NOT a pro player by any means but i think this advice makes a lot of sense
Actually support (proper) is the most difficult role of all as it requires the most tactical thinking (warding and positioning) as well as it demands that you stay viable without farm, which often leaves you extremely squishy. A newbie player trying to play support ends in one possible way: feeding. Which does not mean one should not try supporting - everybody had to learn somehow. But it's not the "easiest role" by any means.
so if support=the hardest thing to do in a teamfight,what should orange/or the worst player in team/noob pick?
Playing decent support is easier to play than decent other roles. Just ward and use your every skill in team fights and you should be fine.
For beginners just pick a tank and go to casual mode public games. Pick someone who is tanky even without items such as moraxus. With moraxus in casual you'll get enough assists by pressing Q to buy a PK, boots and helm and some mana regen like a chalice and won't do too badly. He's pretty easy to play and almost always useful. Try Hammer as well for newbies, and blacksmith. All easy heroes that aren't very squishy, simple skills and decent damage, all useful without items.
After a few dozen games they should get the basics of the game and can maybe try other heroes.
Torturer is just very flexible and dominates lanes. He puts out lots of damage, has a reliable and easy stun, has beastly pushing power and great attack range / decent animation. He doesn't require items necessarily, but he definitely scales greatly with them and gold on torturer is never a "waste" as it would be on some other non-carries.
just had a match with tort,rushed mana ring and after that behe's heart.found out after that, that if not focused by their tdl i could survive and deal my spells,yet i died too often as she was kind of owning us after that.anyway i get tort's ult after maxing his 1st and 3rd and after that his 2nd.even if it eats all my mana, i can't do much thing while the other spells are on cooldown,and it's nice early to get kills on carryez that don't deal too much dmg.