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Can anyone give an overview of a properly conducted team fight? I'd like tips on the following:
- Positioning
- initiation
- What to do in a team fight (for each role, carry, support, ganker, tank, etc.)
- Use of items such as hellflowers and shrunkens.
- When to fight and not
- Are there any solid strategies that work consistently
I play around the low 1400 and the team fights are just disorganised and badly executed. I normally play support (Glac, Andro, Magmus) or tank (Arma, Cthulu) and have recently started with initiators such as Behe and Tempest, have you got any tips for those heroes in particular.
Thanks for reading
I dont have time to create a massive post, but I can tell you about ganker role. Heroes like dr, dw, polly and dampeer who can get rid of 1 enemy extremely fast should always stay back first and try to spot the enemy initiator like behe, tempest, magmus or even maliken and get rid of it fast using blink to get next to him, hope hes abit separated from team or your team will follow fast. If its not possible to demolish the initiator stay back and be ready to jump in right after your team initiates or gets initiated and target important stunners, healers or even a squishy carry. Leave tanks alone and get rid of them last. You usually cant go wrong if you start from the squishiest hero and end with the tankiest. Remember that its alot easier to win teamfights if your team will initiate than you will get initiated in most cases.
Positioning - If you are squishy you obviously don't wanna be in front, go on top of cliffs or in trees so it is harder to kill you. If you are someone like a 'tank' make sure you are taking the damage and simply be in the fight at all time.
Initiation - Make sure that your teammates know your gonna initiate so that they can follow up quickly,otherwise you are gonna die alone. So either ping or type in chat. Try to get everyone or as many people in your initiation, a good initiation can change the whole game (not literally but you get the idea).
What to do in a team fight (for each role, carry, support, ganker, tank, etc.)
Ganker - Go in as soon as a teamfight start, your job is too quickly take down a hero to help the team.
Support - Either stay with the carry or tank and support them with heals or buffs etc or just make sure you are using your skills to the max.
Carry - If its early and you don't have your items, just help and do what you can as you can't do much. But when it's the lategame you should be carrying the team, just killing everything and dealing TONS of DPS.
Tank - Grab the attention of people and force the opponents to use skills on you, no one would be targetting you since your so tanky, so be a nuisance and do as much as you can.
Initiator - Starts the battle in a way to give the team an advantage
Use of items such as hellflowers and shrunkens.
It's best to use these items I think just before you start attacking, the silence could give you enough time to kill an enemy hero before they react, like Pyromancerbecause he depends on his spells and in that time you could kill him. Shrunken Head should be used if you know you are going to be targeted with stuns, don't bother with activating if you see all the enemies' skills being used already before you start to fight, it would be a waste so use it wisely!
When to fight and not - If you are in a good position like on top of a cliff or in trees, that gives you a HUGE advantage as they don't have vision of you yet giving you the edge of the start. Never start a battle if you are outnumbered of low on HP/Mana since 95% will lose that battle which could change the game.
Are there any solid strategies that work consistently - I haven't found any, but a good initiation usually gives you the win.
Sorry for the long post :/
Last edited by FrostCloud; 05-13-2012 at 05:06 PM.
As a support, I think the most important part is:
Are you spells on cooldown? Get. The. ****. Out. As for example, if you used your stun, your mini and your ulti, you are currently close to useless for about 10 seconds. back out, get ready to support allies, and stick close but at a safe distance to the guys you think will need your spells.
Do they have a? Stay WAAAY back so that he cna't go to you, because that's what he wants. You pack 2 cc spells and a great single target nuke, and a perfect nullstone-remover/perma-silencer on heroes with a low mana pool (
), if given enough time. And you most likely will not survive a pebbles combo if you are solo supporting, so make use of you 700 range stun.
As soon as I get home I'll post a game where you can see my laning with stacking + pulling, warding, Item pick-ups possitioning etc.
This is a legion long lane, which we easily ruled with an 450gpm swiftblade I supported, if I wasn't there he wouldnt be sitting that.
89681402
Last edited by Uroefl; 05-14-2012 at 01:15 PM.
Thanks guys that helps.
@Uroefl I'm ok with supporting, it's just that role in team fights which im interested in.
Any other suggestions?
Something that i have seen higher level players keep suggesting is
1) Keep in mind the enemy team's cooldowns and spells. This can only come with a lot of experience and knowledge of every hero (you should play them all to try them out) and probably is one of the hardest things to do in the game
2) Keep and eye on positioning, if they have a magmus behe or tempest or any other aoe initiator its best not to clump up, if you are a ranged carry like sillouette stay the **** out of the enemy team's reach and use your range, being support you should be at the back of the team and only come forward to use spells and b again.
3) Have presence of mind - comes with a lot of experience but try to anticipate what the enemy will do and be prepared accordingly. When pushing a tower and the other team has a kotf for example, and you have a geometers bane, WAIT for the root before using it, in most cases you will escape and survive.
4) This one's a bit more random - if you anticipate a team fight try to ward where u expect it to happen and gain vision advantage. In lower level games, warding over the trees behind the enemy teams rax really helps when pushing since there isnt much counter warding.
5) Try to engage enemies from a higher ground level since they wont see you coming close and by the time they do its too late. More often than not, the team that gets off most of their spells off sooner wins the team fight. Also this will send your enemies into panic mode if they see their teams health dropping very fast and they might not even man up even if they have all their skills up and you have none, and just scatter and flee instead; thus allowing you to pick some off and then later push with a numbers advantage
Im not a very high level player but you cant go wrong with these points, hope this helps
In the low 1400 bracket, there is no such as teamfights. People are too bad down there to make it worth teamfighting.
Play a ganker, and just gank till they concede
You can do that all the way up to 1700 bracket.
The hardest part of any teamfight for newer players is learning the difference between baiting your teammates and smart positioning. If you are positioning yourself properly, then it will feel like you are baiting your teammates. The hardest misconception for new players to get over is the fact that you don't need to sit in the middle of a fight until you die or genocide to be helpful. If you can live to cast your spells at the beginning of a teamfight and at the end, then you will likely win that fight.
Support: Every hero is slightly different, but the general idea is to use your nukes immediately after everyone goes in (your timing is similar to a hard carry). You want to put everything you have on cooldown and then walk a short distance away and hide/wait. Preferably, stay in fog or in trees so you can stay a bit closer, but still be safe. If your nukes come back off cooldown before the fight is over, run back in, cast again and get back out. If you have support items (astro, tablet) run in and use them as necessary.
Hard Carry: This role will make you feel particularly selfish. You should be the last one into the fight. You want the enemy to use their nukes and cc abilities before you show up so you can get 10 seconds of uninterrupted killin` time. Also, the benefit of going in last is that the enemy will be significantly easier to kill as they will all be low on HP from your team's initiations. It is perfectly acceptable, if your team is fighting at a tower, to cintinue farming until the first shot is fired and immediately TP. Leaving freefarm to TP to a Mexican stand off is a complete waste of time, farm and resources, so you want to wait for the fight to start before you TP.
Once you get in the fight, start down your list of squishies (kill the weakest enemies first). "But Armadon does more damage than Monarch!" This may be true, but a 5v4 makes your team's chances of winning a fight better and makes Armadon less of a threat.
Lastly, if you have a teamfight ability, use it as soon as it is most effective, meaning, use it to get the most utility (ie Scout silence, use immediately. MB ult, use on the first hero to hit an empty mana pool (the damage is AOE burst. SW ult, use at the start of a fight to join the fight and disorient the enemy.)
Tank: This is a general term used for really beefy heroes who aren't traditional initiators (Ra, Arma). Their role in a teamfight is to make the enemy THINK that they need to focus them. Armadon does a decent amount of damage over a long period of time. He does MORE damage when he's focused. Arma WANTS you to focus him. To make the enemy focus you, all you have to do is walk around in the fight spamming your skills and whack enemies with autoattacks periodically. As soon as you get focused, walk away. Once they stop focusing you walk back in and do it again. This gives the enemy the appearance that you are tankier than you really are and that you're doing more damage than you really are.
Initiator: Your job is to be the FIRST one in. Heroes like Magmus, Behe, Phar, Ctulu excel at this role due to having great initial damage and AOE stuns. They are supposed to wait for the enemy to make a positioning mistake and capitalize. The second three or more enemies bunch up like queers at a Cher convention, you dive in and deliver heavy damage to them and stunlock them in place so your team can follow in and mop up.
Pharoah is slightly different of an initiator than his counter parts in that he can achieve similar results by disorienting the enemy and isolating one enemy caught out of position instead of 3 or more, like Behe, Mag and Lego are looking for. For instance, you have all 5 enemies sitting in mid and they are well spaced out. If Phar ults the guy in the middle, then he splits their team with mummy walls (in the middle of a lane, mummy walls are almost unpassable). Your team is then fighting a 4v2, while Phar fights a 1v1, and the other two enemy are stuck helpless on the other side.
All that being said, as an initiator, once you get your initial burst out of the way, get out of the way and let your team do their jobs. Stand off to the side and stun again when it's off cd.
Ganker: The ganker is USUALLY the guy calling the shots as they tend to be the player in the best position to tell the team when to go. Usually, they will have been your mid player and will have the best "feel" for the pace of the game and what fights you can win. A good ganker will often tell their initiator when to start a fight. A good initiator will listen.
The second the initiation happens, the ganker's job is to pick out the squishiest, high threat hero and take them out immediately (squishiest, high threat means if you have an FA and a Glacius standing in the back of the fight, FA should be your target). As the game progresses into the later stages, the ganker role starts to turn into a follow up initiator role and then trying to pick someone off shortly thereafter.
Follow Up Initiator: This hero is often your most influential hero for the first 30-40 mins of a game. This is the hero whose job is to make the enemy team worthless either by huge slows, stuns, silences, large AOE burst, or combinations of the 4. Heroes like Hag, Tempest, and Bubbles excel at this role. Their timing is to wait for the initiation and follow up by dropping all of their skills on as many heroes as possible and then moving throughout the teamfight continuing to spam skills and items as needed. (this is often your first hero to finish a FFP or Sheep, so there's always something to cast). The mark of a good follow up initiator is a low cooldown nuke, a mobility skill, and a large AOE CC ultimate. A follow up initiation does not only mean following YOUR initiator, but also theirs. If they initiate on your team first, then the follow up initiator is key for evening the fight back up, in which case, your actual initiator may need to follow you.
To clarify, yes, Tempest can be an initator, but his most devastating ultimates are as follow ups to further disorient the enemy and greatly lessen the possibility of his channel being interrupted as their stuns should be on cooldown after the initial onslaught. However, if Tempest sees a possibility to ult 4 or 5 and there's an allied Behe nearby, there is nothing wrong with diving for that ultimate and letting Behe get a perfect follow up.
SemiCarry (Ranged DPS): These heroes are your Valk, FA, Slithers. Their job is to stand somewhere around the maximum distance that their autoattack range will allow for them to be effective. They are usually characterized as having big teamfight, non-CC ultimates, and a lot of autoattack damage with great animation. Typically, you want to cast your ultimate at the start of a teamfight after the initiator has gone in and CC'd a few (if not all) enemies. Then they cast their AOE abilities (Call of the Valkyrie, Crippling Volley, Poison Spray) and hammer in autoattacks from max range at the back of the fight.
That covers the main roles and a decent synopsis on timing and positioning. It doesn't cover everything and the enemy line up and your line up may dictate that these roles' main focuses may vary. However, the majority of the time, this is how a text book teamfight should be laid out.
Last edited by Jenova26; 05-14-2012 at 03:47 PM.
As someone in the 14s, confirmed.Originally Posted by ArtoAllan
In the low 1400 bracket, there is no such as teamfights. People are too bad down there to make it worth teamfighting.
Play a ganker, and just gank till they concede
You can do that all the way up to 1700 bracket.
Hey, nice tips!
Do you know where I can see which hero fits into which role? What role for example are Hammerstorm, KotF and Balph? Tanky-Hardy-Carry, Inniator and "Support-Tank"?
So a good team would consist of Inniator/Tank, Follow-UP-Inniator/Tank, Ganker, Carry and Support? What would you suggest doing in games where you got like 2-3 carriers (every game)? What should I pick in those games?
Thanks
"Jerezeiah guide us. Jerezeiah teach us. Jerezeiah protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled. We live only to serve. Our lives are yours."
If your team picks alot carries your best chance to win is by dominated mid and ganking lanes for your team, but also if your skilled behe/mag will win alot games. Roam, win teamfights etc...
Unfortunately, there's no clear-cut list of which heroes fit where. Some heroes have multiple uses. For the heroes you listed, Hammer and KotF are best played as initiators. You will often see PKs on these heroes in competitive games and higher tier games since they have large AOE stuns. They are great for locking enemies in place for your team. Balph is best played as a tank due to his high survivability and obnoxious skills. KotF, while really tanky, is not really a "tank" since he doesn't have low cooldown harassment abilities that make players want to focus him. Once he's ulted, he can really only autoattack.
Balph and KotF also double as Pushers, though push-power doesn't much contribute to teamfights, so I left pushers off the list as a teamfight role.
In games where you have 2+ carries, or really any game for that matter, is to pick something that can't hurt your team. For instance, wait for a few players to pick. If you see Valk, FA, and/or Silh, then, like Ackwell said, Behe and Magmus are great picks to set up initiations. However, as a lot of pubs do, if your team waits to the last second to pick and you can't pick around them, then you can never go wrong with a ranged stunner like Pyro, Witch, Voodoo, Polly, Glacius.
The best part of the heroes I just listed, is that they can all play any lane well. If you get stuck without a mid, any of them can do it well. If you need support, they also do it well. You can set up lots of ganks and be a really powerful force throughout the game with these heroes. Pyro and Polly are pretty known mid heroes, but if you've never versused a Glacius, Voodoo or Witch mid, then consider yourself lucky because they are seriously underrated 1v1 heroes and gankers. If I don't know what to pick, with a crappy team, I just grab one of these 5 and can often turn it around.
^max mojo and curse at lvl 8 then watch the enemy burn to death
Just to reiterate what makes a hero good for which roles, or the main attributes you want to look for in a hero to decide how you fit in:
Support:
- Great utility from Level 1 (a stong stun, slow, and/or heal)
- Less than great stat gain (Meaning they get weaker later into the game)
- The ability to harass well in lane (Babysit)
- Abilities are not item dependent
- Hero is not item dependent
Examples: Glacius, Andro, Demented, Monarch, Martyr
Hard Carry:
- Poor early game utility (No spammable stuns/slows/nukes)
- High stat gain (Their auto-attacks are their primary source of lategame damage)
- Very item dependent
- Often have some auto-attack buff to speed farming (MB's passive, Scout's flurry)
- Often have some form of damage amplifier that scales into lategame (Scout & Swiftblade crits)
- Some form of distance-closing ability to aid in fighting at autoattack range (TDL's charge, SW's ult, MB's blink)
Examples: MB, TDL, Scout, SW, Swift, Maliken
A-Typical: MQ with good farm can fill the role of a hard carry lategame, though she is typically a Semi-Carry or Ganker
Semi-Carry:
- Great attack animation
- Some form of farming steroid (Call of the Valkyrie, FA's minions/volley)
- Powerful, large area teamfight ultimates (FA, Slither, Valk, MQ ults)
- Decent stat gain
- Generally put out a lot of autoattack teamfight damage, but cannot straight up fight most heroes well
Examples: Valk, FA, Slither, MQ
A-Typical: Hag has all of the requisites of a Semi-Carry and can fill the role with the right items, though she is typically a Follow Up Initiator or Ganker
Tank:
- Has some mechanic that allows them to take more damage than most (Arma's passives or generally STR heroes with high armor/strength gains)
- Some low cooldown or passive ability that allows them to put out more damage simply by living longer
- Often characterized as being extremely obnoxious and hard to kill without focusing
- Usually are great farmers and can get tanky items quickly
- Though good at farming, they often don't benefit from DPS items
- Great Mock of Brilliance carriers
Examples: Ra, Armadon, Balphagore, Berzerker
A-Typical: Zephyr, Soul Reaper, Lego
Initiator:
- Primarily characterized by a large AOE, hard to miss, moderate to high damage stun/cc with a long cast range
- Often have a high damage AOE ability that is best used in follow-up to their stun
- Generally need team assistance to kill enemies even with stun and ult
- Great PK carriers
- Do not often benefit from DPS items
- Poor to Moderate stat gains (can't carry lategame without a significant advantage)
- Generally can't contribute much to teamfights after initiation skills are on CD (No spammable abilities)
Examples: Magmus, Behemoth, Cthulu, Hammer, KotF, Tempest
A-Typical: Bubbles, Lego
Follow Up Initiator:
- Usually make great mid heroes
- At least one spammable ability (Low cooldown nuke, slow. Usually a strong farming tool)
- High burst damage, large AOE ultimate with some form of built-in CC
- High mobility (able to position skills without the assistance of a PK. Usually aided by an ability like blink, leap)
- Decent stat gain
- Often benefit from high tier support items/cc items over DPS items (Kuldra's/HF)
- Can often semi-carry if necessary and given the proper farm and levels
- They tend to fill the role of Ganker in the early to mid game
Examples: Hag, Bubbles, Tempest
A-Typical: Glacius, Aluna, Zephyr, Ra
Ganker:
- Usually make great mid heroes
- Usually have a stun, a nuke and one high damage nuke
- Capable of solo-killing most enemy heroes at Level 6-8 with little to no item assistance
- Great PK carriers
- Great Codex carriers (though often not optimal. Just stating since they are generally the only acceptable heroes to buy this)
- Decent stat gain
- Often lose significant effectiveness into lategame
Examples: Pyro, Pebbles, DW, Fayde, Parasite, Polly
A-Typical: Hag, Bubbles, Witchslayer
All right, hopefully that clears it up a bit and can help you best decide what heroes to choose for what roles or what role your hero can fill in a standard game. As you can see (and some people may flame me or disagree with me if they choose to not read this last part) many heroes can fill multiple roles. With skill and experience, you'll be able to figure out for yourself how to play heroes in different roles and styles and make them fit whatever situation your in, line up you have, or line up that you're against.
I tried to list a few A-Typical heroes for each role to show you some overlap in how heroes can play outside of their niche, while you can see that a couple heroes (Tempest) can fill more than one primary role.
Like I said before, these are the main roles in a game as it applies to teamfighting. There are many more sub-categories of each of these roles (Pusher, Healer, Semi-Support, Hard-Support), but you're on the right track if you know and understand these core roles and how they fit into a line-up.
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