[2.5.22] Thunderbringer

[Antimodus]

yea, he is not an easy hero, the difficulty of playing him seems to scale with the skill level of the enemy players much more than with most heroes. Other nukers like MK pebbles etc, just "do their thing" to at least some degree of effectiveness if played well. To get the kind of damage out with TB that would "earn his keep" (considering the minimal utility he has otherwise) you have to keep kiting the teamfight and not simply walk in cast your stuff and die like a support or initiator might. It's a very hard thing to do sometimes with no tools to assist you whatsoever (aside from the ToC core).

[[TECH]Gorb]

squishy hero, no escape mech, no decent farming skill, 300 auto attack range, bad auto animation, no slow, only a mini-stun. Compare to long list of s2 heroes with escape mech, slow, stun, flashfarm capability, and decent burst damage all in one hero.

yep, 100% a victim of power creep. give all his skills a tapering slow trolol

Can deal excessive single target damage, has an excellent harassing/last-hitting mechanism and a passive that allows all of his skills to scale throughout the game.

I'm not disagreeing on the power creep, but I do dislike it when people state all the negatives without the positives. It creates an unfair image of the hero being appraised.

EDIT: if you could PM me a list of S2-created heroes that have a slow, stun, escape mechanism, decent farming ability (bear in mind that to do it constantly requires a low manacost) and burst damage (to avoid off-topic moaning about "S2 heroes", a fallacy that has previously shown to be false), I'd be happy to debate the subject with you.

[suprgosu]

EDIT: if you could PM me a list of S2-created heroes that have a slow, stun, escape mechanism, decent farming ability (bear in mind that to do it constantly requires a low manacost) and burst damage (to avoid off-topic moaning about "S2 heroes", a fallacy that has previously shown to be false), I'd be happy to debate the subject with you.

Master of Arms (escape being both sides of the ult, manacost may be debatable but acid-ground-thing/slowsplash is decent enough with a bottle or manaring)

Monkey King (no description necessary)

Amun Ra (No additions necessary)

Midas (Manaring needed)

Draconis (No slow? don't know haven't played it)

Panda (also weak escape but atleast able to jump cliffs, no slow but atleast 2 stuns and some knockbacks)

Fayde (Weak escape and high manacost though, also no slow)

Need more?

EDIT:
I would love to see this debate about TB continue, it's a really fun hero but I am on the side of too weak in its current state. Either a attackrange+movespeed buff to help in early stages and teamfight positioning or some more drastic rework, perhaps a stacking movespeed buff after casting spells like pyro/armaddon placed on either the third skill or levels of the ult.

This would help chase down enemies as the typical situation is that you can do 90% of a heros HP but have nothing to finish with, or you get jumped, burst the best you can but simply die while on cooldown with no way to get out.

I will admit that a large part of the problem is that people rush something like spellshards, staff with striders or other "stupid" items instead of first going tablet/pk/phaseboots and/or stormspirit to aid mobility and survivability. But the point still stands that alot of heroes have initiation or escape built in and more than a few of them pack the same "punch".

[[f13]`11411181]

"S2-created heroes "

"Fayde"

[suprgosu]

"S2-created heroes "

"Fayde"

I would say that moving around the "farming spell" from stun to whatever the AOE damage-nuke-circle is called is enough of a change to make it more viable for farming, not only is a circle aoe better suited for lane-creeping you also don't put your stun on cooldown in case you get ganked. So there is more than enough of a difference from NA to differentiate, now stay on topic.

[[813]Quillenator]

Most people in this game have the wrong mindset when it comes to outdated heroes. You see stronger and stronger heroes being released while the origingal heroes from the start fall behind. Instead of screaming buff buff buff to put them on the same level as their newer adversaries, the problem stems from the newer heroes being overpowered from release. Instead of buffing old heroes to their level, new heroes need to be brought down to the same level of balance as the old. The overflow of new heroes every other week might attract other people to try the game, boosting player base numbers, but it is also crippling the balance. Unfortunately, the majority of HoN players are in the 1400~ bracket and do not understand the concept of balance or strategy, so pumping out hero after hero has a better affect to the game overall in terms of revenue and playerbase, but cripples the game quality to oblivian.

[supply_depot]

This would help chase down enemies as the typical situation is that you can do 90% of a heros HP but have nothing to finish with, or you get jumped, burst the best you can but simply die while on cooldown with no way to get out.

I will admit that a large part of the problem is that people rush something like spellshards, staff with striders or other "stupid" items instead of first going tablet/pk/phaseboots and/or stormspirit to aid mobility and survivability. But the point still stands that alot of heroes have initiation or escape built in and more than a few of them pack the same "punch".

I don't like to pick apart points too hard, but I think there are some flaws in the paradigm of TB here. TB is a magic nuker who does massive amounts of team damage while offering very little utility. His primarily role is not that of an early game ganker, e.g. Deadwood. He CAN gank with some degree of success because of his ridiculous early game damage (especially with a level lead), but it's not what he was built to do. He is also not an initiator (though his ult is most effective at the beginning of a fight), so he doesn't require an initiation skill.

If enemies are getting away at 10% health left, it sounds to me that the team is not coordinating well enough. TB can put enough damage out to make a kill easy, but it's hard for him to pop out and do it alone. (Though proper sequence of q -> r -> w all within lightning rod range can destroy low hp heroes instantly.) TB does not fill the same role as DW / Pebs <insert ganker here>, so it's hard to make this statement and say he is underpowered because of it.

Getting jumped and being able to do very little afterwards is the name of the game. 95% of heroes suffer from this problem. That's why Legionnaire is so manly. If lucky, TB can get an ult off, though, and make the countergank / clean up process much, much easier. Not guaranteed, but easier.

On a final note: nobody packs the same punch as TB. Find me a hero that can instantly do 750 (+ lolzy Lightning Rod) damage in a single skill without fail at level 6. Not to mention his single target nuke is murder early (and still mean late thanks to Lightning Rod).

Nullstone / Shrunken / Magic Armor diminish this ability significantly, but TB's ult is still the single highest damaging move in the game. Only well placed hag / MB ults could do more damage, but they require much more positioning and other factors to get maximum efficiency.

TL/DR : TB's role is magic damage. He does it really well. Less flexibility in roles does not = underpowered.

[[NU]Tomate]

The positive aspect that you mention, I won't even argue with it...

The issue with TB is getting there... TB's laning phase is just awful... level 1 to 4 are but a slow agony. Once you hit 5, you're enemy will often be near level 6, will have had his bottle before you pretty often and will just keep being extremely annoying to you.

If TB had a decent laning phase, he would probably be 1 of the very strongest hero in the game but since his early game is fairly lackluster and that games are all about snowballing out of the laning phase into a pushing scenario into a 25 minutes GG... this hero just lacks overall to fit in.

You can still argue that he has potential and so on, but the new breed of torturer and the like will just dominate TB 24/7 in mid.

[PlayeroJ]

^ You know upping his passive radius back to 1000 would also help his laning phase too. Hate to sound like a broken record, but its seems like the degree to which nerfing both the damage and especially the range of his passive was a bit excessive to begin with.

[KawaiChan]

I just played TB against 3 null-stone user. Early game, yeah sure I dominated. It not long until they got Null-stone mid-game. Thats when it get tough. I cannot use my ss to initiates team fight anymore (got BH in my team). It's really a pain to take out the null first when the opposing team will aways try to jump me first. But I hold on until I got a refresher. After that It's GG . My point is the Null-Stone pickup really affecting TB damage combo output. So my question is should Null-Stone be able to block TB SS or it is intended?

[sharbarachu]

I'd like to see TB gain some mana sustainability so that he can shine where he's supposed to; early-mid game (and also make him more viable for side lanes). You really need to buy escape/gap closing items on TB (tablet, etc) to be useful in early/mid game. In other words, you basically never have mana unless you get every rune, and this is quite a task as he's pitiful at controlling runes. Re-working his abilities so he has a way to gain mana back, in perhaps a unique mechanic, would make him a lot more interesting to play.

One idea would be something like the following: his Q applies a debuff as it bounces from target to target. This debuff restores X% mana to TB if his W nuke hits said target within X seconds. The more bounces in, the more returned. For instance, if your chain lightning bounced to 5 targets, and you hit the 5th target with your W nuke, you would recieve more mana. Something that requires paying attention to maximize - he's really just boring atm.

[skeloperch]

Even when he was first pick/ban, he was an outdated, wimpy hero. Everything he can do, WH can do better, or Bombardier, or Artesia (though she is pretty bottom tier as well), or blah blah blah. I think the biggest thing that's wrong with him is that he has no way to utilize his offensive power seeing as if he gets too close, he's ****ed, and if he doesn't get close, he can't do much more than ulti. He is the single easiest hero to kill in game, with even Vindi and Flint being harder to pick off.

It all boils down to him not being able to put out enough damage to warrant not having anything else. If he had longer range (on everything), more utility, or more survivability, he would be better off.

[suprgosu]

Even when he was first pick/ban, he was an outdated, wimpy hero. Everything he can do, WH can do better, or Bombardier, or Artesia (though she is pretty bottom tier as well), or blah blah blah. I think the biggest thing that's wrong with him is that he has no way to utilize his offensive power seeing as if he gets too close, he's ****ed, and if he doesn't get close, he can't do much more than ulti. He is the single easiest hero to kill in game, with even Vindi and Flint being harder to pick off.

It all boils down to him not being able to put out enough damage to warrant not having anything else. If he had longer range (on everything), more utility, or more survivability, he would be better off.

Exactly this.

So with supply_depots points above. Its a hero that needs levels to be effective, meaning, in all seriousness solo mid vs a solo where in all situations except very few it will not only get out denied, but also out harassed or even killed by heroes such as torturer, kraken, rampage hag and so on.

What you have in the high level lane then, is a hero that has lower farm than that of the opponents, can't control runes due to lack of mobility, sort of a weak ganker that is better suited at helping out by staying in lane and ulting on every gank attempt. It then needs to remain on a lane that it shouldn't, but inevitably will push due to chain-lightning. Meaning you have to go back (and not get farm) or stay in a pushed up lane and die due to lack of escapes.

When all this is said and done and you and your team is somehow still in the game, you can't initiate, can't chase and you don't bring anything to assist your team except damage, no stun, no slow nothing. So you still get picked off easily if they have any sort of mobility (and as previously discussed, they most likely do) so you do a lot of damage really quickly and then die. Maybe you get a kill, but every other teamfight you most likely die, even if your team "wins" so the opposing teams valkyrie, silu or whatever "damage dealer", that does 1/3 of your damage stays alive, ports out and goes back to farming.

Now this was a long rant, but will this win you games? My money is on no....

[Antimodus]

Can deal excessive single target damage, has an excellent harassing/last-hitting mechanism

TB's single target damage is hardly excessive. His total hero damage (vs all 5) is one of the best though. But to really accomplish much of anything with it, he needs to stay alive - extremely difficult as he's the easiest pick-off in the game.

Of all the heroes that have a lasthit aiding spell, TB's is probably the worst one.
Morax, Kraken, Armadon, Rampage, Deadwood whatever. All of them get the lasthit almost for free, or at worst need a chalice to spam it forever. TB needs 80 mana per last hit.

A hero that does this much damage to everyone is hard to balance though. SW is another good example. Make them too powerful and they can bury entire teams.

[[eR]Ekamo]

TB's single target damage is hardly excessive. His total hero damage (vs all 5) is one of the best though. But to really accomplish much of anything with it, he needs to stay alive - extremely difficult as he's the easiest pick-off in the game.

Of all the heroes that have a lasthit aiding spell, TB's is probably the worst one.
Morax, Kraken, Armadon, Rampage, Deadwood whatever. All of them get the lasthit almost for free, or at worst need a chalice to spam it forever. TB needs 80 mana per last hit.

A hero that does this much damage to everyone is hard to balance though. SW is another good example. Make them too powerful and they can bury entire teams.

But none of those has an almost guaranteed harass tool if they are choosing to last-hit with it. A skilled Thunderbringer has insane lane control with it, while the others are limited to just a strong last-hitting ability.

[Dominare]

TB's single target damage is hardly excessive.

Assuming an enemy with 1000 hp, a single cast of BoL does 460 magic damage. It cannot miss, and is on a 7 second cooldown. As an example & reference frame, Pyro's level 2 blazing strike does 675 on a 90 second cooldown, and has 100 less range (and costs over triple the mana). TB may have problems, that's a fair debate, but let's not start trying to say that his damage output is one of them, because it demonstrably is not.

[[eR]Ekamo]

I feel there are some common misconceptions that constantly leads to the same, straight-forward suggestions about how to "fix" Thunderbringer, and this applies to any other hero as well. You know who you are people, and I please ask you, refrain from those suggestions since if they are not deleted they will most likely be ignored by every single person reading it.

The most common, but nevertheless faulty misconception, is that TB needs a higher range in order to become balanced. I do not think anyone would argue that if you put enough numbers into this category, he will sooner or later reach a status where he is considered "balanced". Then why has this not been done?
When trying to balance a hero, one must take into consideration many factors. Every single stat about a hero matters, and there are numerous ways to tweak those. There are countless ways to make a hero reach the status of "balanced" where one of the most obvious ones would be to simply incrementally increase the damage done on a certain skill (let's say, Thunderbringer's Lightning Bolt) until the hero is considered "balanced".

This way of balancing ignores a very important aspect though.
Is the simplest and most straight-forward way the optimal way to achieve balance?

I am not saying that such is never the case. I am simply trying to emphasize the fact that it is more often not than the other way around.

Why you might ask. Why not just take the most obvious route to balance, and be done with it?
The fallacy in that logic is that it completely ignores the fact that balance and design are two very intertwined concepts. The design on a skill is not limited to the way the skill works, it is also directly tied to the numbers on the skill, and thus balance. One might say that, for example, the high range on Pharaoh's ultimate is simply a balance aspect of the hero, but I would argue that it is even more so a choice based off a very specific goal in design to add a certain flavor of the hero, with the numbers of it later balanced around that conscious design-decision.

Here is when Thunderbringer comes into the picture. It should be made very clear that his low attack range is a conscious design-decision, and not simply a remnant from the older Dota engine. When Thunderbringer was created, it was with very specific design goals in mind, which even though I have no inside information on, can make decently intelligent guesses about:
He was designed to be a high damage hero-nuker, who from a pretty long range could completely obliterate specific heroes or wreck teamfights. He was supposed to be a strong laner with his strong last-hitting ability, but was given extremely low range and low movement speed to make up for that. In lane, he thus has some pretty major counters (high-hp heroes with strong solo-killing capabilities), because he is so reliant on a static amount of damage which does not effect them as much as well as being very easy to kill when being just slightly out of position. He is also limited by the fact that he can rarely completely seize a lane unless he gains an early advantage, due to his innate tendency to push the lane up to the enemy's tower (which conversely can benefit him as well if one capitalizes this to gain a strong rune-control). His low movement speed, natural squishyness and lack of true disables throughout the entire game is indeed intended, to work as a buffer to allow the possibility of giving the hero a ridiculous skill-set, namely his ultimate. The hero is given glaring weaknesses to make up for his extreme strengths, which in Thunderbringer's case is to be able to from a long range deal high amounts of burst damage on a pretty consistent basis. This in due turn creates something very unique about him, something that further increases strategic versatility and diversity in the game.

Given this somewhat simplified analysis, I pose this question to all of you:
When trying to balance a hero, such as Thunderbringer, should we go with the simple solution of buffing the heroes weaknesses, and in the process taking away a very unique aspect of the hero (and thus the game as a whole), or should we try to find an alternative solution that makes the hero retain its unique flavor while nearing this status which we commonly refer to as "balanced".

Considering this, I find it very evident that our goal in this forum is to discuss our ways to these optimal solutions, by critically probing the hero's strengths and weaknesses, and by somewhat reaching a consensus on different approaches to how the hero can get closer to a balanced state. On the opposite side of the spectrum, I assert as well that our goal is not to mindlessly spit out suggestions (such as in this case, increase Thunderbringer's attack range), which might slightly improve the game's balance, but that in the long run might have unforeseen consequences and maybe even be detrimental by decreasing the diversity in design in the game.

Good design is often imperative in order for a hero, and subsequently the game, to be appreciated, both from a player and spectator perspective. When balancing a game, one shouldn't be satisfied with a solution that works; one should instead strive to find an optimal solution (implying there is such a thing) that will satisfy casual and competitive players and spectators alike. I do recognize the fact that some concessions can/should be made one way or the other when a situation truly calls for it, such as nerfing/buffing the pub-dominance or competitive dominance of certain heroes or vice verse for the general betterment of the game, but this should by no means be the norm.

It is our job to take this into account in our discussions, and not solely focus on the easiest, most conspicuous way to balance a hero. It is our job to maintain a high standard in our discussions, and this can only be achieved by a joint effort to try to avoid outright suggestions like the plague. Because if you cannot prove that your idea is the optimal way to balance said hero, why should we others bother to even consider it? It is not our job to find your line of thought when only given the end-result; on the contrary it is your job to explain it to leave room for as little ambiguity as possible.

The goal of this sub-forum is to have intelligent discussion on the interaction of heroes, items and game-play related issues, and to ultimately probe and provide insight on overall balance.

With this in mind, please continue, and stay focused on what this forum actually is meant to do, to provide intelligent input on this game's balance.

[supply_depot]

Here is when Thunderbringer comes into the picture. It should be made very clear that his low attack range is a conscious design-decision, and not simply a remnant from the older Dota engine. When Thunderbringer was created, it was with very specific design goals in mind, which even though I have no inside information on, can make decently intelligent guesses about:
He was designed to be a high damage hero-nuker, who from a pretty long range could completely obliterate specific heroes or wreck teamfights. He was supposed to be a strong laner with his strong last-hitting ability, but was given extremely low range and low movement speed to make up for that. In lane, he thus has some pretty major counters

Great post, Ekamo. Folks need to keep in mind that this isn't the suggestion forum. The balance forum exists to more or less 'diagnose' heroes / items / skills that may have balance concerns and point out why.

I think Ekamo hit the nail on the head by stating that TB had a specific design that, as a hero, TB was meant to have great strengths (enormous magic damage with good range / strong laning ) offset by great weaknesses (MS, no stuns, lower hps).

TB doesn't fit as well into the current meta where players are leaning towards tanks and heroes like Valk who don't have much of any "hard counter". That doesn't necessarily ruin his viability. The competitive scene and the meta go through phases. I almost spit out my drink after leaving HoN for 6 months and coming back to see people tripping all over themselves to first pick Moraxus. A paradigm change in roster lineups could see TB picked favorably again.

[LordTroll]

TB was meant to have great strengths( strong laning ) offset by great weaknesses (MS, no stuns, lower hps).

A hero is not a strong laner when his only reliable method of last-hitting against a proper opponent is using a chunk of mana on a spell that will make you lose lane control simultaneously by pushing it... Counter-intuitive.

For the sake of discussing Thunderbringer properly let us not assume he has "great laning", it's below average at best really.

[[eR]Ekamo]

A hero is not a strong laner when his only reliable method of last-hitting against a proper opponent is using a chunk of mana on a spell that will make you lose lane control simultaneously by pushing it... Counter-intuitive.

For the sake of discussing Thunderbringer properly let us not assume he has "great laning", it's below average at best really.

That is an extremely simplified analysis, which does not at all take into account his huge harass-capability, something which defines the hero's laning. Every time Thunderbringer has been picked up, a huge reason has been to capitalize on weaker laners, which in this case actually is a lot. Mid to low hp, RANGED heroes he has in most cases no problems what so ever to deal with, but on the contrary he is very easily killed by more tanky heroes with early kill abilities (hai DW).

Sure, he uses mana to last-hit, but who ever said every single last-hit has to be done that way? If he is harassing 85 magic damage (64 reduced) for 65 mana means that basically every single mana point TB has can be turned into equivalent damage from level 1. Starting with 260 mana, and having 325 mana with standard early items (two minor totems and a mark of the novice), combined with the mana regen of 1.01 he receives from those items, he will be able to pump out 7 during the first two minutes of the game (9 if he uses mana potions), which is a total of 580 reduced damage. There are few heroes who would stand up to that harass combined with auto-attacks (yes, TB can autoattack) which is why they on a constant basis has to back of to use regen of sorts, which in due turn allows TB to use his auto-attacks to last-hit and deny (if you miss last-hits in freefarm and blame it on his attack-animation/projectile speed, that is your problem). And now I didn't even take into consideration the fact that he levels up for increased intelligence and mana regen, which probably allows him to use one or two more chain lightnings.
With this very spammable skill, Thunderbringer gains a substantial lane-control, and this is what allows him to dominate most heroes. Pushing into enemy tower is not necessarily always bad since it resets by tower if you plan it well enough, and it gives you an early advantage over runes. If the enemy backs off to avoid your Chain Lightning harass, you use your auto-attacks, and if they don't, they will take ridiculous amounts of damage very quickly.

Saying Thunderbringer is "below average" in terms of laning is completely and utterly false. Just because he hasn't seen usage in a long time does not necessarily mean he is horrible. He is very close to how he was when he was considered one of the most game-breaking heroes in the game, and even though the game has changed, he still retains some of his strengths.