It's always been a problem for me but after this latest match, I want to know how I can cope with it. I'll face something like Gauntlet/Dampeer etc. and they just rape me. Some guys stand around and let me harass them too much or get into really bad positions so I can kill them with conduit but against people who are as good as me or better I don't see how I can win the lane.
They usually have buckler, making harass ineffective at best. They only go in for last hits and denies and don't stand around which means I can't power conduit up for more than a few seconds and if I do so, I won't have any defense against them if they go on me when conduit is over & some players, when I use conduit, they blow their spells on me and then go back. This tends to mean that I either back off and the net result is that I lost a lot of hp or I attack them when they run, doing some damage but taking even more from creeps - this stops working once their spells get powerful enough since they can kill me with a second combo when I'm running back from near their tower.
Hatchet makes trying to last hit almost futile, especially against heroes that have really good animations like Dampeer. The melees can kill creeps at a range where I would need to hit it twice and even heroes that don't have that much more base damage than me like Monkey King still have a huge lead thanks to hatchet.
So what are my advantages that I get in return for being outleveled, outfarmed and being in constant danger of dying when they are level 6+? I don't feel like I have any. Conduit is not really an advantage, the cooldown is really long and they still have +32% damage, hatchet throw and spells that they can last hit & sometimes harass me at the same time with even if I get like 3 ticks in. My range is gimped compared to 600 rangeds, my damage is much lower, I take more damage from creeps and I need more farm than they do to do my job properly - something that other ranged heroes like Hag don't have a problem with. All I need to start ganking with Hag is marchers and bottle, as CD I need ghost marchers before I can even think about ganking and a beastheart to do it ''reliably'' unless my enemies are just worse than me/my team and/or their lanes suck.
I've played him for exactly 230 games now, 22% most played. I really like CD so I want to get better at miding vs melees. I want to be good enough at middle laning that no matter what I'm up against I get the farm I need. But how? it feels like I should just play other heroes. Even quite a few ranged heroes like Arachna, Puppet and Doctor have a great damage advantage over me. He works fine against players who don't really know what they're doing at mid either in general or with the hero they're playing but that's it.
dont go mid, go side lane with a babysitter...
you dont need the level like dw, fayde gaunt, etc.
Yeah I'll try to do that more. Ideally with Andromeda.
Originally Posted by Ackwell1
Lvl conduit and spam it to them. Then autoattack them out of the lane.
That's what I do already and it doesn't work in practice. It looks good on paper though. It'd work if I was playing Razor but the differences between Link and Conduit means that it's not viable in HoN unless you're on a sidelane, you're not near their tower, you're not facing a solo lane (unless he for some reason tries to win the lane 2v1 by harassing you) and their lane combo isn't a threat to you (if you're facing hammer/mag + pyro/valk etc. you're just gonna die by trying to stack conduit).
hehe, specifically vs those heroes try leveling passive over conduit (just get 1 in conduit until later), max Q first and concentrate on lane controlling and harassing/CS'ing with Q and prioritize rune controlling (mostly so dampeer/gauntlet doesn't get it). maxing passive first over conduit gives you a nice movement speed boost early on while also purging the enemy gauntlet/dampeer and doing 100 damage to them whenever he uses a single-target spell on you, it's great for allowing you to react to whatever they throw at you, and can set you up to conduit more easily vs them (conduit at level 1 is still very strong and can get the job done)
steamboots will help you manage your mana much more efficiently with stat-swapping+bottle if mid, and give you the survivability you need to survive any burst dampeer/gauntlet will throw at you early on, practically allowing you to ignore them because as long as your steams are on strength their burst will not be lethal to you.
the energizer or astro may be a little too unorthodox for you but i find it works very well for me energizer is just to help alleviate any movespeed problems early on with steams while giving you decent stats during the buildup, or if you're looking for survivability astrolabe is a pretty effective replacement for hotbl that gives stats and a nice team heal.
firebrand/geos is just suggested for more movement speed when getting steamboots, combined with your percentage based 12% increased movement speed from passive it gives quite a boost, while also giving you really good attack speed with steams. you can rush that shrunken first if desired but you might not like the movement speed at all.. it just depends on your team make-up and what's needed out of you.
the premise here is to play him more farm and countergank-oriented early on, only tp'ing to gank/counter-gank when necessary, and then beast mid-game with a farmed CD. not getting ghosts may hamper your ganking ability a bit but with decent hero picks/teamwork it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
like i mentioned to you before I really dislike hotbl on CD.. I see why it works well with Ghost Marchers for the diving potential and much needed survivability, butif you pick up steams Hotbl is really uneeded. i've done some math on it as well and iron shield+astrolabe costs about the same as hotbl but for the most part farexceeds hotbl's usefulness on ranged heroes.. ironshield+astro gives you +11 agi, a much easier buildup, and again a team heal which can be big in early/mid-game teamfights/pushes (something CD and his team should be doing a lot of obviously), while hotbl only gives pure survivability. the only downside is your inventory may clutter up later on as you make room for other pickups.
just a few suggestions, consider changing the build a bit depending on the situation
Last edited by PrestonLee; 05-08-2012 at 11:53 AM.
I'm gonna replace ghosts & helm with steamboots(again) & astro if I ever play this hero again for the foreseeable future but I'm giving up on him now. This hero is just obsolete. He's just like the British faction in CoH: strong against people who don't know what they're doing or what to do against it but as soon as you face someone who can also play the game you need to outplay them and they need to make mistakes just so you're on par.
Having 200 gpm means I'll get steamboots in roughly 8 minutes. This means that every wave there is I get 3/5 of the creeps when accounting for passive income which is just not gonna happen against Electrician, Dampeer, Gauntlet and on and on and on.
Going against their dual lane is not feasible because it's either gonna be a combo lane or there'll be a hatchet melee there. Going against their solo lane means that when they hit level 6, you're hugging the tower or dying - either way sets your gpm back.
I'll take a hatchet melee, go mid if i can and report the result.
lol.. sadly yeah he is a victim of power creep, there isn't much incentive to pick him over just going Aluna, silhouette, even EW (and soon artillery assuming he doesn't get hit by a huge nerf stick) I really respect you for persisting on getting CD to work though, i think it's cool to pick 'less viable' heroes and squeeze the most out of them instead of just face rolling easy win picks
Me too... that's why it's so hard to stop playing him :P. Nah well. I'll start trying to get him to work when I've got more rating to play around with. 7 5 24 Drunken Master even after getting raped in the beginning by a ganking mid, roaming sidelaner and facing plague rider + gunblade on their short lane, coming back with pretty much ghost marchers and sols, whatup. I'm ready to faceroll.
I feel like you can easily zone out non-Gauntlet/Devourer melee heroes, and just chill behind their creepwave? Try to pull the wave towards your tower, then force them to stay out of your attack range (Conduit if necessary). It's really hard to approach CD as a melee hero -- just don't have the creepwave between you, so you can last hit super easily.
uhh,max the nuke, one in conduit,max third+ult and use conduit as a scare away tool when you go for runes (make sure to push the lane with 2 of the nukes over like 30 seconds),dampeer does not have a good pushing ability,ur first nuke is amazing,rushing vestments after bottle > boots would be a free win against both of them,just make sure you have rune control,and if you have to go 4 minor totems/1 set of trees and just focus on getting that bottle by the 2 min mark,you can use conduit as a tool to get a free creepwave if you can lasthit since he has to back off at lvl 1 or 2 if you position urself with u behind his creepwave(u dont have to harass,just lasthit and harass if he comes to close.
Also as a range hero you obviously have advantage of harrass. below1700 people often just try and get creep kills even when they are range against melee. The tip is to do both. When there are no creeps about to be killed/denied, instead of just dancing around or spamming H to get a good last hit in, why not just atk the enemy hero 1/2 times. This forces them to get back and you can kill that creep with ease.
Also as a melee hero, they will have to get close to the creeps if they want to deny your farm. When a creep is getting low spam your Q spell (forgot what's called) for harass. and ofc refill bottle with runes