Savage Mace stacking on Flint Beastwood

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

Forgive me if this has been solved before but I could not find a thread (through search) that showed how Savage Mace stacked with itself. Is it multiplicative? (I am sure it is not additive, because 4 savage maces don't give you 100% mini-stun chance, but how is the math done?)

Assuming I am Flint Beastwood with max W when I get:

(1) Savage Mace: My proc chance per hit is 0.4 * (1.35^1) = 0.540
(2) Savage Maces: My proc chance per hit is 0.4 * (1.35^2) = 0.729
(3) Savage Maces: My proc chance per hit is 0.4 * (1.35^3) = 0.984
(4) Savage Maces: My proc chance per hit is 0.4 * (1.35^4) = 1.329
(5) Savage Maces: My proc chance per hit is 0.4 * (1.35^5) = 1.794
(6) Savage Maces: My proc chance per hit is 0.4 * (1.35^6) = 2.421

I am assuming this math is wrong because as far as I know, the proc chance should never equal or exceed 1, right?

[Lethe]

Normally I'd be an ******* and introduce the simple concept of diminishing returns, but as of 2.5.8 savage mace no longer stacks with itself regardless.

W and savage mace stack fully, that is, it is not mutually exclusive.

.35*.4 = 14% chance both proc
.35*.6 = 21% chance savage mace proc but W does not.
.65*.4 = 26% chance W procs but savage mace does not.
.65*.6 = 39% chance neither procs.

Simple.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

I don't think that is additive stacking because additive would be 0.75 proc chance. This is 0.61 proc chance.

So then the question is, is it really worth it for Flint to get Savage Mace.

I mean 40% mini-stun proc chance is 2 out of every 5 hits. This is 61 / 100. Just for simplicity, let's make it 60 / 100. So that makes 0.61 just a little over 3 / 5. So 3 shots in every 5 hits.

Is it worth it?

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

Also according to DoGKaiser, Charged Hammer adds more overall damage to DPS carries than savage mace. He said that in a podcast that POTM would get the item equivalent in DOTA all the time, even though savage mace and sange and yasha existed.

What do you think, should Charged Hammer be considered core on FB instead of Savage Mace?

[Lethe]

Mutually exclusive: two events cannot happen at the same time. When I said stack fully, I meant to imply that it is possible for both to proc, that is, one does not override another.

I used to theorycraft over various dps items but I've come to the conclusion that it is a waste of time as there are too many variables you cannot quantify. True strike, armor reduction w/ allies, ministun, static charge buff, etc.

Dogkaiser is wrong about charged hammer and savage mace, it is certainly not an absolute and varies depending on the hero's current damage and attack speed, as well as armor, magic armor and magic immunity. Mjollinir was popular on potm because Mkb and sange and yasha were crap at the time, and was more farm oriented. S&y is still **** FYI.

As an ex-comp player and balance lead of HoN, it disturbs me how little dogkaiser understands his own game.

[[S2]MacroHard]

1) Savage Maces stack perfectly. You can get two procs at the same time, for +200 damage total. You are correct about SM not stacking.
2) Charged Hammer provides better DPS per Gold Cost for many situations

[Lethe]

Explain 2.5.8 change than?

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

OK i feel like we are drifting away from the topic. Macrohard, can you please tell me how they stack?

How much chance do I have to mini-stun per hit, if I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 savage maces on FB with max W?

[[S2]MacroHard]

OK i feel like we are drifting away from the topic. Macrohard, can you please tell me how they stack?

How much chance do I have to mini-stun per hit, if I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 savage maces on FB with max W?

The formula for ALL percent based effects (in HON, any other game, or even real life) is...
X = 1 - (1-A)*(1-B)*(1-C)*(1-D)*...

Where A, B, C, D, ... is the percent chance for a successful action to occur
And X is the percent chance that AT LEAST ONE of A, B, C, D, ... occurs.

So...

Flint Beastwood with no Savage Mace: 40%
1 - (1-0.40) = 40%

Flint Beastwood with 1 Savage Mace: 40%, 35%
1 - (1-0.40)*(1-0.35) = 61%

Flint Beastwood with 2 Savage Mace: 40%, 35%, 35%
1 - (1-0.40)*(1-0.35)*(1-0.35) = 74.65%

etc

Table:

# savages (W maxed)	chance to ministun
0	40.00%
1	61.00%
2	74.65% 61.00%
3	83.52% 61.00%
4	89.29% 61.00%
5	93.04% 61.00%
6	95.47% 61.00%

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

Thx macro, u rock.

[[SALT]Gumbie]

It was patched so that Savages don't stack with themselves anymore. Flint can still get double procs with Savage+Hollowpoints but multiple Savages won't give increased percentage to proc/a chance to proc +200. I believe the "exclusive=true" line indicates this, as that would imply that getting multiple Savages is the same as multiple Shieldbreakers or other attack modifiers.

[[S2]MacroHard]

It was patched so that Savages don't stack with themselves anymore. Flint can still get double procs with Savage+Hollowpoints but multiple Savages won't give increased percentage to proc/a chance to proc +200. I believe the "exclusive=true" line indicates this, as that would imply that getting multiple Savages is the same as multiple Shieldbreakers or other attack modifiers.

Confirmed. My whole world has crumbled!

[Lethe]

so basically I was right.

still <3 u

[[SALT]Gumbie]

Confirmed. My whole world has crumbled!

Life = complete <3