[2.5.19] Grave Locket Discussion

[Dasherz_]

Just wanted to hear some others opinions on the item.

At the moment almost every person I play with (1600-1950 psr) picks it up on 90% of heroes and I have had some discussions with some high level competetive players and they all agree it is super overpowered for the price.

Mark of the novice - 150
Pretenders Crown - 185
Amulet of Exile R - 150

=485g

Amulet of Exile gives +3 agi +3 str +6 int

Grave Locket Recipe -250

=735g

Grave Locket uncharged give = +4agi +4str +7int
52 hp / 91 mana / 0.56 armour / 4 attack speed


Grave Locket charged via kill or assist = +7agi +7str +10int -10 seconds on respawn timer.
91 hp / 130 mana / 0.98 armour / 7 attack speed

The build up:
A lot of the problems lies in that it takes most the items you already have in your inventory from the start of the game to build. Alot of str heroes benifit from +3 (150g) and +2 all stats (185g) while laning as many have low mana pools. Int heroes obviously love amulet of exile as it does everything for them and is a cheap stat boost / bigger mana pool. Agi heroes get amulet of the exile somewhat less but not after he introduction of the grave locket, as it gives 133 hp and 130 mana which is huge on heroes like FA, Valk, TDL, SS, Silo, Engi, Flint, EW, MM, Damp and many others just go through the list yourself and youll see alot agi heroes benifit from an extra spell cast or two early game, for a super cheap cost.

-10 seconds on respawn timer:
This is especially huge early game while respawns are between 15-30 seconds. Not only can you get back to farming faster if you got ganked but say there is a fight at your tower you die and would normally have 25 second respawn now its only 15 seconds and you can tp back down to the tower to help your team much sooner. This item maes pushing actually alot harder as the -10 seconds is a set number and not scaling it is huge early game but negligable late game.

Its nothing like Sac Stone:
I wont get into a discussion in this thread about sac stone but this item because you lose the charge on death does not make it situational like sac stone is.

Anyone who has played this game for a while will realise how important stats are early game having an ultimte orb (agi is every negligable) like item 4-6 minutes into the game is absolutely huge.

The only stat based item it loses to in gold per stat (gps) is the minor totem

Minor Totem = 17.66 gps

Grave Locket charged = 30.625 gps

Predator Crown = 30.83 gps

Grave Locket Uncharged = 49 gps (corrected)

+3 stat items = 50 gps

Ultimate Orb = 70

See a problem here? Your basically getting an ultimate orb for 35% of the price the only real part missing is the extra 57 hp. 7AS and 0.3 armour is negligable especially if your not an agi hero.


Heroes this is good on:

Every Int Hero

Every Str Hero except warbeast as I believe he cant make good use of the extra mana

Every Agi Hero except a couple of super hard carries who rush runed axe instead or rush HOTBL. As these items are far more important to get early and most of the time wont be getting it charged within 1-2 minutes of getting the grave locket.
Magebane, TDL, Scout, Sand Wraith and Chronos are the agi who wouldnt normally get it as they are on a race against the clock to get big items and cant spare the early gold even though how minimal it is.

Drawbacks:
When you die you lose the charge.

You see though with the -10 seond respawn timer this isnt a huge deal and you can be back out on the feild 40-50% quicker setting up ganks again.

I frequently play with high level players who refuse to get this item as its banned in tournaments and they dont want to get used to it then not be able to use it in a real game. Those gameswith 1800-1900 players who are just really good pub players they get it every game as they understnd jsut how good it is.

The only good suggestion i've heard however bland is to increase the recipe cost to make it actually compete with other stat items.

Your thoughts and suggestions?

[[eR]Ekamo]

Approved for mathz.

Suggestions are okay, IF THEY ARE PROPERLY REASONED TO AND JUSTIFIED (!). If not, feel free to just not post.

[man_guy]

I think its mostly fine at the moment since it doesn't promote stacking, takes an item slot, and doesn't build into anything (yet). Just compare it to Power Supply in efficiency and buildup. I don't like items that are so good they obligatory to even compete, so it helps to have items in similar efficiency to Power Supply to promote some item diversity since Power Supply won't be removed.

[[ScBr]MadPsycho]

I agree this item is almost always good. However, I don't think that's a bad thing. The item promotes more aggressive early game play, which is to be preferred over a stagnant farm-fest. It is very efficient, but then again so are the other items in its price range. It's a decent investment that can't be upgraded, which is the main reason I feel this item is mostly balanced.

[[f13]`11411181]

"who refuse to get this item as its banned in tournaments"

Uh.

Huh.

[Dasherz_]

^ they try to avoid getting this item while playing pub games as it is bad practice for them to get used to using an item which is banned in tournaments as his is the primary focus of their game playin. Especially an item which changes early gameplay so much.

Same reason they dont practise monkey king or kensis yet as they are still banned in the upcoming tournaments they are competeing in.

[[iG]iNsania]

Just saying' it's basically an ultimate orb for 725gold,


on behalf of the comp scene, OP item is OP.

[[GR]XFlame]

Insania, if you were to balance this item, how would you change it, barring the 'remove from game plz' option?

[Skitkeff]

I agree with you. I pick up Grave Locket 90% of the time, it is incredibly powerful.

I think that Soulscream Ring, Fortified Bracer and Null Talisman (forgive me, I don't know what it is called in HoN) are underpowered. Sure, picking up 1-2 of these could be beneficial early, but it's most of the time a waste. My cores on almost every hero is Power Supply, Ring of the Teacher and, nowadays, Grave Locket. By changing Soulscream Ring, Fortified Bracer and Null Talisman to also give +3 damage (as in DotA) would add a bit more variety to early-game items.

Nevertheless, as you say, the -10sec respawn timer is ridiculous early. If you manage to pick up a Grave Locket very early you can almost remove the respawn timer. This makes Grave Locket a must-have item in intense and high-paced games.

In conclusion:
Add +3 damage to Soulscream Ring, Fortified Bracer and Null Talisman to make this compete with Grave Locket. Also, remove or rework the reduction of the respawn timer.

[[HExR]TheShiny]

How is it OP? I mean, define OP. It's a good cheap item for early game that everyone can get with or without good farm. It's not OP, but it's a good item in most cases. I think its basicly **** after late midgame since you cant build it to anything and it's not even worth picking up if you don't have a decent kill and death ratio when playing since you will want to use the -10 sec timer imo.

[[ix3]Baer]

The item should need >10< charges, one kill/assist gives you an amount of charges equal to the level of the dead hero.
You don't lose charges when you die.

Makes it less strong early game, but doesn't nerf it later.

Though I commonly like this item, as it is.

[[f13]`11411181]

^ they try to avoid getting this item while playing pub games as it is bad practice for them to get used to using an item which is banned in tournaments as his is the primary focus of their game playin. Especially an item which changes early gameplay so much.

Same reason they dont practise monkey king or kensis yet as they are still banned in the upcoming tournaments they are competeing in.

Uh.

Huh.

So in other words, you're saying that rather than abuse a broken mechanic to win games in non-serious pubs (and then eventually have people take notice and nerf it), they all collectively groupthink themselves into a corner and decide that it's better to not even touch it.

Where have we heard this form of collective reasoning before again being flawed? Oh right, BULWARK.

I'm probably the most extreme example of using theorycrafting, rather than actual game experience, to assess things - but even I think that's retarded. Look at Smoke of Deceit in DotA2 and imagine if competitive players reacted to that in the same way as Grave Locket.

inb4 shitcunts tell me that the smoke analogy is bad because dota2 is a different game blah blah and i just couldnt possibly understand why.

That item will stay there right up until s2 can see whether the positive sides of the item that they wish to shine through are effective or not, and it will continue to have those stats on it to make people pick it up - with minor reductions if need be to placate people.

[Dasherz_]

Uh.

Huh.

So in other words, you're saying that rather than abuse a broken mechanic to win games in non-serious pubs (and then eventually have people take notice and nerf it), they all collectively groupthink themselves into a corner and decide that it's better to not even touch it.

Where have we heard this form of collective reasoning before again being flawed? Oh right, BULWARK.

I'm probably the most extreme example of using theorycrafting, rather than actual game experience, to assess things - but even I think that's retarded. Look at Smoke of Deceit in DotA2 and imagine if competitive players reacted to that in the same way as Grave Locket.

inb4 shitcunts tell me that the smoke analogy is bad because dota2 is a different game blah blah and i just couldnt possibly understand why.

That item will stay there right up until s2 can see whether the positive sides of the item that they wish to shine through are effective or not, and it will continue to have those stats on it to make people pick it up - with minor reductions if need be to placate people.

This is the last post ill say to you as your clearly just trolling.

Most pro players I know prefer not to get the item as to anyone with a clue its obviously going to be nerfed. Its basically like practicing engineer when he was first released, it was obvious a nerf was coming and no point playing him in pubs if they truely want to get better.

Pro players dont want to "abuse broken mechanics" as it will only increase their mmr/psr in pubs compared to winning $$$$ at dreamhack and such. Also sols isnt banned in tourneys afaik.

If grave locket wasnt banned in the tournaments they were playing in ofc they would get a grave locket but the fact is IT IS.

Anywho you have done nothing to comment on the balance of the item itself so please dont try and derail the thread further.

[skeloperch]

Grave Locket is fine since all it offers is cheap stats, and builds into nothing. It's in direct competition with other early stat items like Major Totem, which builds into the handy dandy Tablet of Command, and Power Supply, which also has a tacked on mana/health heal, and can be used to save oneself in a clutch situation.

The -10% respawn time should go, though. This should be a stats-only item. Once that's removed, this item is in a perfect spot.

[Salem1]

I find that this item is fine because it competes with so many other items. You'll want boots, power supply, vestments and a tp as ranged and that with a hatchet and/or buckler as melee. Then you build your first major item. But because you got a grave locket, you won't be able to put more than 1 component in your inventory unless you've sacrificed other key items - especially not if you're melee as buckler is really solid. Not a problem if you're rushing shieldbreaker but try hellflower, savage mace, shrunken head etc.

Now of course most people in pubs don't carry tps and don't invest in either power supply or vestments. But if they did and for those who do, they would have to sell grave locket or something else pretty soon after getting it which is gold they could've used to get something else and/or get rid of an item that will be missed. Supports want to build utility items like tablet, stormspirit, astrolabe etc. with what little gold they have, carries want game-changing items like shrunken head and savage mace with a few components that won't have space in their inventory if they get grave locket, gankers tend to have bottles and thus really have no space at all for it & like carries they want to snowball not accumulate many small items (not that you can really do that with only 6 slots) and initiators don't need it at all to do their job.

[[f13]`11411181]

This is the last post ill say to you as your clearly just trolling.

Most pro players I know prefer not to get the item as to anyone with a clue its obviously going to be nerfed. Its basically like practicing engineer when he was first released, it was obvious a nerf was coming and no point playing him in pubs if they truely want to get better.

Pro players dont want to "abuse broken mechanics" as it will only increase their mmr/psr in pubs compared to winning $$$$ at dreamhack and such. Also sols isnt banned in tourneys afaik.

If grave locket wasnt banned in the tournaments they were playing in ofc they would get a grave locket but the fact is IT IS.

Anywho you have done nothing to comment on the balance of the item itself so please dont try and derail the thread further.

What's to comment? Using the excuse of not using it is like saying that these players don't play new heroes to see what they do, and get good at them. Rubbish rhetoric.

The item is getting nerfed anyway, so *shrug*

[[NU]Tomate]

The item really isn't picked that often in the 1650 - 1750 bracket... I can't say I think much of the item...

Most heroes that actually get farm are usually the melee heroes that rely on getting an early HotBL or something like such meaning they won't invest the gold into the item, the mid heroes who often need a bottle prior to investing in much else making grave a later game item, the item, as funny as this might be, competes with mana ring (only 650 gold more which isn't much on a hero obtaining farm) and provides more mana, way more regen, a team utility and a supporting aspect.

Locket really benefits only a niche group of heroes like Hag if you ask me, for most heroes, better options exist early on, specially considering the fact that the item, uncharged, is somewhat lacking.

[Grizfang]

Grave Locket is fine since all it offers is cheap stats, and builds into nothing. It's in direct competition with other early stat items like Major Totem, which builds into the handy dandy Tablet of Command, and Power Supply, which also has a tacked on mana/health heal, and can be used to save oneself in a clutch situation.

The -10% respawn time should go, though. This should be a stats-only item. Once that's removed, this item is in a perfect spot.

I kind of agree here, comparing locket to powersupply they are close in terms of power and how often it is picked up. Why is it ok for powersupply to be picked up on +90% of the heroes but not grave locket?

[Xinlitik]

I agree that it's a bit unreasonable in its current state. What if it were toned down very slightly by making the on-assist/kill bonuses incremental? That is, instead of instantly becoming an ultimate orb, it takes a few kills to do so. And only make 1 charge lost per death so the main idea of the item (giving supports a reasonable purchase) is not obliterated.

[Alten]

I kind of agree here, comparing locket to powersupply they are close in terms of power and how often it is picked up. Why is it ok for powersupply to be picked up on +90% of the heroes but not grave locket?

Power Supply offers an exciting turn-around mechanic and has been in existence for several years in DotA. Grave Locket offers relatively boring (but ludicrously high, gold-efficiency wise) stats and an often unnoticed (but incredibly powerful) early game death timer mitigator. It is in direct competition with a series of cheap pre-core items such as the aforementioned power supply (or RotT, Vestments, etc.).

But, yeah; mostly, power supply is dota. New items are arguably overpowered/imbalanced because they disrupt the existing relationships between heroes and their item choices. Bulwark, the SB change, etc. Particularly, "old professionals" feel uncomfortable when new content is hoisted upon them and forces a change in playstyle, strategy, etc. Even if the change is for the "better" and encourages "a favored gamestyle."

To be truthful, I found grave locket to be a pleasant addition because it helped unclutter the early game cheap-item-whoring many were forced to engage in with this tanky/gankfocus meta. It offered a new dynamic to early hero-builds, and now psupply and corresponding items are no longer the go-to choice for a ludicrous number of heroes. They are still extremely valid options, but they are now more situational. A problem may arise if grave locket overtakes them too far, but this has not happened yet; nor may it actually be valid, because the item is not one that will stay on a player for a significant portion of the game.