Yes! I think this is a positive change.
No! I like things how they are.
I like the normal mode change for sure.
For the CM one though I think 7:30 is too early, I would suggest maybe 10:00 would be a better concede point, to give the laning phase a chance to wrap up and move into the the next stage where you can moreso see how things are shaping up. At 7:30 might still be a bit too early to REALLY gauge how the game looks.
No this is very bad. I've played DoTA 2 (don't hate) and not being able to concede I feel has really improved the game. You never get the OMGWTF FAIL MID CC 15 I AFK rage. Decreasing the time is a really bad move I feel, 99% of games are NOT over by 15 minutes and the fact that S2 see someone not conceding as "holding hostage" really shows they don't care about the community. No one will ever improve if they afk and concede at 15 minutes without playing the game until the end. Instead they can continue to cc at 15 minutes until they find a game where they will be the stomper and not the stompee. This is really pathetic move from S2 and appealing massively to the crying 12 year old casual market. Disappointing to say the least.
Last edited by Dave`; 04-27-2012 at 02:37 PM. Reason: typos/grammar
I voted yes, because I think these are better than the current system. However, I agree with some of the other posts about the CM change: it's a little too much. I do think that concede timers should be lower in casual mode, because the games can get to a point where conceding is reasonable faster than normal mode. However, I think at least 10 minutes to see how the mid-game is shaping up is a good idea. I also wouldn't mind seeing something like 10 min 5/5, 15 min 4/5, although I do understand the point you make about not wanting players to feel as though they are held hostage in a more relaxed game mode.
Last edited by Aterian; 04-27-2012 at 02:42 PM.
Game Masters are not S2 Games employees. My posts in no way represent the view of S2 Games or any of its staff.
Honestly, I like the idea of shortening the casual mode concede timer. Casual mode is supposed to be the mode that is more about speeding up the game a bit to lessen the amount of down time, therefore the timer should be adjusted accordingly. I think 7 minutes is a bit extreme for a reduction, but then again, I don't play casual mode so I don't know the way the game flows.
For normal mode, I am a bit torn. I have a hard time believing that the prevalence of griefing of this sort is so common. I can't be sure about it because of how infrequently I've been playing HoN recently, and I hate to give anecdotal evidence, but most times when I see people refusing to concede, it is because they believe that there is still a chance to win. The thing with conceding is that it discards a significant part of the game (i.e. the end-game), where a lot of significant turnarounds can happen and where a number of heroes hit their peak.
As a result, I'd rather the normal mode concede system stay the same. I hesitate to suggest that it should be delayed farther, but in truth, I'd generally rather play through with the chance of winning than throw that chance away by conceding.
Also, the argument that "early concede helps prevent the game from getting boring" is invalid in my mind. HoN has those downtimes built in. If you are getting bored while playing HoN, you should find something else to do, whether it be another game or some other kind of activity.
TL;DR: Casual mode CC should be shortened some, Normal mode CC left the same, getting bored is not a good excuse to give up on a game.
Keep your head and the experience will be better for all involved.
As to the non/anonymous voting system, I like to see both down and up votes, but I don't necessarily think we need to know who voted which way.
Keep your head and the experience will be better for all involved.
Concede Vote: 15 Min 5/5 and 25 Min 4/5
Pause: 3 per Game
Kick: 7 Votes To KICK
Concede Vote: 10 Min 5/5 and 20 Min 4/5
Pause: 1 per Game ( is Casual Mode )
Kick: 5 Votes TO Kick ( I play Casual mode and some players abuse, in casual mode is easy to change a game. )
Sorry for my bad english.
There's already enough people insisting on cc without looking at everything, 22 minutes is ridiculously short for a game to be unrecoverable
I think people give up and whine about concede too early in general, so no, I don't like this change at all... It should be harder to concede, not easier. Also once a player joins a game he usually (or at least should) prepares mentally to play for an entire game, right? So what is so hard about making people commit for at least 30 min?
First off you could not have written a more biased description. Referring to someone who wants to play, and not concede, as a "griefer" demonstrates you inability to be objective on this matter. You may as well have just told people to vote to approve the new option.
Secondly, you make the assumption that 9 players are being "held hostage" by 1. Can you read minds? Maybe some of them want to keep playing even if they're winning or losing. Maybe some people just vote to concede b/c they're tired of dealing with the "AFK at fountain, cc @ 15" whiners. I ONLY time I will ever vote to concede is when I have a teammate who is clearly griefing everyone else by sitting in the fountain and avoiding the afk timer (good luck preventing that behavior since RAP's never get read anyway).
One of the biggest problems with the original DOTA was leavers who would quit after the first kill. It was infuriating. Now, HoN has basically renamed these "leavers" to "conceders."
The problem is that when you have the option to concede you are more likely to perceive that a concede is necessary. If you remove the option to give-up/quit then suddenly you will be more likely to win games.
Remove the concede option altogether and just allow more leaves. It's essentially the same thing. Here are some ideas of what should be done, some of which are obviously mutually exclusive:
-Separate leavers/quitters/conceders and people who prefer a full game(even if you lose some of them) - make it a separate game option.
-Limit the number of times a person can call for a concede vote (either once/twice per match or only at certain times, i.e. b/t 22-24 mins, 30-34 mins)
-Put in a timer before another concede vote can be called
-Make it so you cannot call a concede vote within 30 seconds of being killed (most people will rage and spam concede the instant that they die)
-Concede option only available once 2 rax have been killed
-DRASTICALLY reduce the afk timer - 2:30 would be better than 5:00
-Concede option only available if kill ratio is 2:1
-Reduce the amount of silver coins given if you lose a concede
-Other team gets extra silver if they win by concede
-Increase amount of silver coins awarded the longer a game goes
Last edited by ElGuapo; 04-27-2012 at 03:46 PM.
The game isn't balanced for CM, so 7min/4vote doesn't sound bad. It IS casual mode.
Also, if someone doesnt want to play, they don't want to play.
If some fail carry refuses to CC and says we can still win, I just wait for the clock to run out.
There's always another game.
Also, regarding Silver coin abuse.
Assuming you CCed at 7, and started another game in 3min, what is that, like 10 minutes to get up to 7 loser coins? (assuming you get 4 friends)
Making 42 coins an hour?
3000 coins / 42 coins/hr = ~72 Hours of straight game playing to get that shmancy new skin.
Can that really be considered abuse?
R.I.P. Random gold 7-29-11
This is something I can't really agree on. Thank you for looking to the community for some feedback but with conceding already at 15 I feel its already a bit too soon. More often than not a game is never over at 15 minutes, most games can be turned around by this time even if one particular hero has started to snowball out of control.
With proper warding, teamwork and/or farming correctly you can often if not always come back.
The current mentality for many players is that if the score is low the game is over, when this is typically not the case and it ruins many games. Then the one outlier is left out and will get griefed heavily. Then the teammates begin to afk and give up. Its only at the point that people truly give up that the game is over.
This is obviously just my opinion but if we are going to decrease the 4/5 timer I would prefer a very slight increase in the 5/5 timer as well.
tldr; games aren't usually lost by 15, people tend to give up too easily as is.
22minutes is a bit too early for 4/5 normal imo.
I understand the issues regarding 1 hero holding others hostage (btw I think its other 4 hostage not 9 cause if it is a stomp the other team is prolly happy farming stats)
however I think giving 1 player only 7 minutes to convince his team that the game isnt over is extremely unfair.
Typical Carry Player Scenario: An extremely well farmed carry gets a runed axe by 10-16minutes. An alright farm gets you your runed by 16-20min and if youre having a bad game it could be 20-25min. After that you usually need a few more minutes to get +1 item that could be of use and help you potentially sway a fight.
I'm using runed axe as an example here but you could argue similarly for a delayed PK on any initiator or say a mock on bear/sw or a geobane/SH on a ranged carry. All these things are IDEAL to get before or at 20min but in a game where 4 people want to concede youre probably not having an ideal game.
Typically your 5th player's key item wouldve been stalled by about 5ishmin and so an early stomp could still mean a late PK/SH/RA/radiance by 22-28min which could then hopefully win you enough of a teamfight/ganks that your team would realize you have a shot at winning.
Changing the timer to 22minutes essentially ensures that your 5th player has no hope in farming that 'key' item to sway the tide of battle in their favour. 22minutes is quite unrealistic for an underfarmed hero to try to convince 4 people that the game isnt lost. The reason 30minutes would work is because 22-28min is where you usually pick up key items.
Hell I've had multiple games where we've turned around and won a game where at one point they had double rax and we didnt have a SINGLE tower, but I didn't pass the concede vote and it led to being one of the best games ever.
ps. the only thing this accomplishes is eliminating a solo queue griever (eliminating by 8 minutes) which I personally think isn't worth removing a LARGE majority of epic games. (prove me wrong if you have data which can check the "longest hon games" or ones that have a turnaround and check how often concede votes were started and failed on those games as opposed to normal hon games).
Dota 2 sucks in not having a concede vote at all. but imo a concede vote should only be there to remove the "sitting at enemy well farming kills" scenario because lets face it the best games in hon are ones where youre losing and you manage to turn it around, and this change will I think remove atleast more than 50% of those games.
I really hope you guys read this and take this stuff into because 22minutes is almost pointless - the 5th player wont be able to do anything in this time and so if youre making it 22min you might as well take it all the way to 15minutes......
*Image has been removed for being inappropriate*
I love the CM idea. I never play CM but after this I think my games will be 100% CM.
IMHO the Normal mode should be the same as CM (7 minutes 4/5 passes). I know that most of the time you can still turn a game around this early, but if you have a bad environment, and your whole team is fighting each other, it's not about winning anymore. I would sure take a loss then play with 4 people harassing me and then trying to kick me at the end of the game if we manage to win.
The concede vote should be used to end not just lost games, but unpleasant ones as well.
Also, I have a suggestion to end the concede vote spam. Make the concede an individual option, like a box on your UI that you tick when you want to concede. It doesn't have any kind of global announcement for that, it only shows in the scoreboard who has concede activated, so you know who wants to keep playing and who doesn't. If at any given time you have 4 people on the same team with this option checked, the game is auto conceded. This way you avoid 2 guys spamming concede every 15 seconds, wich would make the game much more enjoyable. One should be able to untick this option as well, in case you change your mind and want keep playing.
I don't play Casual, but wtf 7:30 is too early to concede. If games are determined by then definitively, in a majority of games, the mode is at fault.
As an aside, I think something should be done with 9 vote kicks in terms of communication to the general population since it does absolutely nothing to the person being kicked (affects win%, that's it). So many people jump on this "kick then CC" BS that they will hold a game up as if penalizing someone that doesn't receive a real punishment.
Last edited by man_guy; 04-27-2012 at 04:54 PM.
All these guys saying that this is a bad option and that concede should be removed, they are the reason this change is being implemented. These are the guys that think that because they farmed a Runed Axe the game is won, they fail to see that enemy carry has 3 times their farm and their whole team is 5 levels above ours. I think the concede should be 4/5 from the 15 min mark.
If 2 people want to keep playing it's fine, but if it is only 1 guy, more often then not (much more often) hes trying to grief. How many times have you encountered a case where only one guy wanted to keep playing and you actually turned the game around??? This has never happened to me in 4k games. Just change the concede to 4/5 at 15 min please.
Or remove the concede as the griefers are asking and increase the leaver treshold to 10% so I can leave these lost games.
No this is a horrible idea, there should not even be a concede option in the first place. When you click to play a game, you should be commiting at least one hour into that game not giving up and thus wasting other player's time. If anything i would say make afking kick time a lot less, and remove the concede option. When i start a game i want to play it from the start to the end no matter what. Also, it's no secret that the people on the forum are mostly here to cry about something, therefore most of the people voting will want shorter concede time, because thats what they want to complain about.
I do not really like quiters and this is catering towards quiters. Most games you already have the person that got bloodlusted trying to quit as soon as the can even if their team is ahead. I was expecting NM concede to be moved to around 20 minutes and the 4/5 to around 40 minutes. Way to many games end befoere they are over. Time to man up and stop looking for just the easy games. Time to win a couple hard ones too.
I think 25 min is enough. 22 minutes is a little bit too fast. For example, for a carry to farm a first item when the team are doing bad can take normally 22 minutes, and by conceding just when the carry really starts to help the team is a little bit too fast if everyone but the carry wants to cc. Give it 25 min. Much better than both 22 and 30. Also a number that is easier to remember for newbies.
Tempest - When things aren't going your way.