[2.5.19] Empath

[[Poni]kippetje]

It would be really awesome if people could back their claims up with actual reasoning on why they do feel things are the way they describe them to be.

Otherwise we might as well call Empath a schnitzel and close the thread.

instead of replying here, I'm going to be writing a guide which you'll probably see pop up sometime soon

[Zilrax]

Is the guide called Empath is a schnitzel?

[[IaF]Skyve]

instead of replying here, I'm going to be writing a guide which you'll probably see pop up sometime soon

Which also probably won't really contribute much of anything to this thread.

[[hds]lumbarSuport]

I've played Empath (and other supports) quite a bit, and I don't think she's nearly as weak as people are saying, but she is slightly subpar. Her main problems are in the laning phase where (as many have pointed out), her stun is too unreliable to use effectively without also missing out on autoattack damage.

While Essence Link is a bit too situational to be good, I find Synergy to be a subtly powerful and underrated skill. If you only put 1 into her Link and Wall early on, you can put 3 into Synergy, allowing you to support your whole team and protect against harass-heavy lineups. I often use this build when my team has 3 melees, particularly when the opposing mid is ranged and harassing heavily. Having your allies buy Stout Shields while you provide their regen can allow them to stay in lane and farm much longer and more effectively. It can also allow them to trade hits because they can heal much faster than their opponents. So just keep that alternate build in mind -- it's quite good and it doesn't rely on her (admittedly weak) stun.

As for the stun, I have an easy fix that would (I believe) fix many of the hero's problems:

When Empath is inside an ally and uses her Q, she should be able to prematurely break the link by pressing Q again. This would remove the current problem of the carry having to run away from the enemy to trigger the stun. Boom, easy fix -- and it wouldn't affect her laning phase power because she would only gain this sub-ability while ulting an ally. And it fits the symbiotic theme of the hero. I know this isn't the Suggestions forum, but maybe give this idea some consideration?

[[OlkS]DeadUmbra]

Empath's role in the lane should be to outlast the other team in regen. With lifelink and synergy you get way more health reg than avarage. Sometimes buying a lot of consumables and autoattack like a maniac works, but now all meele heroes have more health reg and empath remains the same. Plus if they get a lifetube or lvl's or even a trinket of restoration (maybe an exaggeration) you have failed. Empath needs about 134 autoattacks to kill a lvl 4 cthulhuphant!
So I suggest something like a higher base damage or more damage on lifelink.

[Bartimaeus]

Magic Immunity won't allow you to walk through the wall.

In most cases heroes can get through the wall because they have an ability that binds them to a projectile - and projectiles can get through the wall just fine.

Could be wrong though.

Greetings!

I took my time to do some reasearch on the wall spell "Illusory Veil", since Empath is a hero I like alot.

First of, The following heroes can get through the wall in one way or another without the help of items:
Amun-Ra, Chronos, Cthuluphant, Dampeer, Doctor Repulsor, Electrician, Gauntlet, Gemini, Geomancer, Gunblade, Kraken, Magmus, Maliken, Bubles, Tundra, Valkyrie, Midas, Monkey King, Myrmidon, Nighthound, Magebane, Nomad, Pandamonium, Parasite, Pharaoh, Predator, Rampage, Ravenor, Riftwalker, Sandwrait, Shadowblade, Silhouette, The Dark Lady and Wretched Hag.

As you can see, it's quite many, I might even have missed one or two. I don't mind the high number, but there are 10 of these that I think shouldn't be able to pass through the wall. I can't say "why" I think so, more than that It's my opinion.

1. Chtuluphant, Spell "Trample": Not a targeting spell, can't go through clifs.

2. Electrician, Spell "Static Grip": Unsertain if this should( In my opinion ) be changed.

3. Kraken, Spell "Tsunami Charge": can't go through trees, clifs or buildings. Shouldn't pass through "Illusory Veil".

4. Tundra, Spell "Cold Shoulder": A little problematic since it's a targeting spell. But; Can't go through trees, clifs or buildings. Shouldn't pass "Illusory Veil"

5. Monkey King, Spell " Illusive Dash": Same as "Tsunami Charge"(can go through trees if I'm not all wrong).

6. Myrmidon, Spell "Wave Form": Same as "Tsunami Charge".

7. Nomad, Spell "Mirage Strike" (both normal and Illusion): Same as "Cold Shoulder"

8. Rampage, Spell "Stampede": Now, this is a little different. Rampage can't go through the "Illusory Veil" normaly with his "Stampede" spell, BUT the last second during the "Pounce" of his spell, he can pass through the wall without any problem.

9. The Dark Lady, Spell "Charging Strikes": Don't remember if targeting or not, anyways, Same as "Tsunami Charge"/"Cold Shoulder".

10. Sand Wraith, Spell "Desert's Curse": Can Target, Let's him go through everything, But I still think wall should block him.

Heroes that can't go through for some reason (which I'd like to stay that way):

1. Fayde. Her ulti let's her pass almost anything, but Not The "Illusory Veil" wall.

2. Legionnaire. Can't charge through the wall.

3. Madman. Can't get past with his invis/unitwalk spell.

Other things I've noticed:

1. Devourer can Hook People (no matter what team you're on) through the wall. No preblem if you ask me.

2. If Rampage Use his Ulti on someone (I am somewhat Unsertain if this is true, have seen it Once in a game) The person that is in the chains can not pass through the wall even if the person is in Empaths team, as if the person becomes a unit of the oposite team. Sound very odd, but I hope you understand.


Last Words: I hope this helped to the balancing of the hero/game. Also, Sorry if this were the wrong place to put the Reply, First time I post more than a sentance.


EDIT: Thanks to Nolander.

[[SSxy]Nolander]

I'd just like to point out that Cthuluphant can Trample through trees and buildings, you're right about cliffs tho.

[Bartimaeus]

I'd just like to point out that Cthuluphant can Trample through trees and buildings, you're right about cliffs tho.

Oh my, So sorry. Will Edit my post.

[[KtoK]londoahv]

And myrmidon follows a different pattern. He can go through the wall if and only if the illusory veil has been cast AFTER he is in charge state. If the wall goes up during the cast animation he will find the quickest path around while in charged state, not matter how long it is (my personal record has been from legion Ancients to the vicinity of top rune via Legion mid tower). And if the wall is up before Myrm uses wave form he cannot charge through or around it unless his range requirements are met.

[Bartimaeus]

Reply to londoahv: I would claim that you are wrong on the statement that he can't pass the wall After It's Up. I have been trying this today (did it now again after reading your post) and he can pass through just fine. When did you test/see this?

[[Poni]kippetje]

My biggest problem is with heroes like chtulu and kraken being able to charge through, it really doesn't make sense and it's a stupid mechanic fail. (it's worse if you are behe)

Note that this is also the reason behemoth isn't picked up a lot anymore, too many heroes can just jump away making him very bad at roaming in most situations

[foxmindedguy]

My biggest problem is with heroes like chtulu and kraken being able to charge through, it really doesn't make sense and it's a stupid mechanic fail. (it's worse if you are behe)

Note that this is also the reason behemoth isn't picked up a lot anymore, too many heroes can just jump away making him very bad at roaming in most situations

Also Pharoah isn't pick for the same reason, wall hopping too OP

[GregerMoek]

I think the hero is underrated, not that bad at all. She adds mobility to a target of choice and the ability to use items even when her ulted target is disabled is pretty strong, now I realize that she isn't often the one to take farm. So perhaps a number's change on her life drain would be in order to make her a good solo support, kind of like Jeraziah is at times. However I don't think she needs it.

She fits quite well with heroes that does not have the best mobility (for example Predator). I even think I saw her at DHS in one game.

So basically, underrated, could use faint number buffs if anything. Nothing major.

[Corn22]

Empath is one of my top played heroes, so here we go.
Q is bad ass for early game harass. Q a hero and right click them. If your not against a nuke heavy lane proceed to lawl. I'd consider the stun reliable. I do think there should be a little more punishment for breaking the link, but the skill is overall pretty awesome.
WALL IS GOD TIER. People underestimate this skill. Get a decent wall at level 2, link that punk to death, and watch the enemy play scared as a little girl all of laning phase. Combine this skill with a behe wall or bramble wall (even polly wards) and team fights are going to be a breeze.
E is awesome. See previous post.
Ult also awesome. Allows her to be balls deep in a team fight without being in danger. Couple this with a tanky carry and you've got a wrecking ball. Also allows ranged carry to pump out mondo dps from behind a wall.
So weaknesses:
For empath to compete with previously mentioned supports she does need a little farm. BUT once she does have that tablet/storm spirit I'd say she surpasses those supports. But this is a HUGE BUT. When playing support you should plan on getting minimal farm. Without tablet/mana ring your going to run out of mana real quick after a ult-wall-link-speed burst (But if done right this combo will get you a kill and/or save a carry). The cast range on Q is a little weak. I love the flint beastwood / empath combo but he is never in range of the Q and usually not in range for a wall. Maybe increase the range of these spells when ulting? You could add a double cast to Q to auto pop the stun at any range but that might tip her in the direction of OP. Also this would make refresher weaker on her (rarely happens but good for lols)
TLR Empath rapes but needs a little more farm than other supports. Empath w/ red boots isn't as good as DS with red boots but put a mana ring on both and Empath way outshines the other.

PS - A Staff of the Master effect would be cool. Maybe reduce the downtime between dropping out of a carry and ulting again to 0, and/or as previously mentioned increase the cast range of Q/W while ulting.

[[IaF]Skyve]

I think the hero is underrated, not that bad at all. She adds mobility to a target of choice and the ability to use items even when her ulted target is disabled is pretty strong, now I realize that she isn't often the one to take farm. So perhaps a number's change on her life drain would be in order to make her a good solo support, kind of like Jeraziah is at times. However I don't think she needs it.

She fits quite well with heroes that does not have the best mobility (for example Predator). I even think I saw her at DHS in one game.

So basically, underrated, could use faint number buffs if anything. Nothing major.

In terms of buffs the one thing that to me stands out when playing her is her manapool. She can dump so much mana so incredibly fast it's not even funny. If you actually want to fully utilize her ultimate you'd be spending 450 mana, since you can use "Faster!" every 5 seconds. Now obviously you don't always need to do that, but realistically you'd want to keep your target hastened at all times (unless it's attacking a stationairy target like a tower).
BUT, if you're doing well while inside a hero you will be able to add up levels and a decent amount of farm (you shouldn't be dying too often) relatively easily. What I would consider would be to increase her int gain a bit (or actually a lot) just to spice things up a bit.
Or we increase her 21 base int (<- relatively low) up to 25, which results in ~1 more Faster! by the time she is level 6.

Although I am not completely sure if such a change is even necessary.

Edit: And yes, she got used in DHS together with predator once.

[[Poni]kippetje]

Increasing her base int would make this hero completely overpowered early game due to her already strong skills at that time. If you really feel like mana would be an issue I would say int gain would be a way better approach.

I'd like to show you some numbers of her E:


As you can see, at just level one every hero can take an extra last hit every minute. (and still have some left) This may not seem to significant, but basically it allows players from every lane to be a tad more aggressive early on, and be able to farm the neutrals more often after a fight etc. becaues they will regen enough. (Empath shouldn't really die very often in a fight)

I would also like to point out that Empath is not supposed to be a hard support hero. She is a semi-support, meaning she is not a ward***** and should be getting support items such as tablet/abyssal to help out the team. (like others pointed out before)

ps. sorry if I am talking about stuff that has already been talked about.

[PrestonLee]

Increasing her base int would make this hero completely overpowered early game due to her already strong skills at that time. If you really feel like mana would be an issue I would say int gain would be a way better approach.

I'd like to show you some numbers of her E:


As you can see, at just level one every hero can take an extra last hit every minute. (and still have some left) This may not seem to significant, but basically it allows players from every lane to be a tad more aggressive early on, and be able to farm the neutrals more often after a fight etc. becaues they will regen enough. (Empath shouldn't really die very often in a fight)

I would also like to point out that Empath is not supposed to be a hard support hero. She is a semi-support, meaning she is not a ward***** and should be getting support items such as tablet/abyssal to help out the team. (like others pointed out before)

ps. sorry if I am talking about stuff that has already been talked about.

^I agree with and feel these points are very important to keep in mind.

The main reason people are thinking she's underpowered is they default to looking at her as a hard support.. while this is definitely one viable way to play her, it isn't the only one. Having her take some farm early on allows her to be a very mean diving support ganker early on when leveling Q, and as described in above quoted even just one point in her aura can add up to be very beneficial for the entire team, and over the course of the game her aura can save huge amounts of regen gold and healing downtime and just make team pushes much more efficient.

I really don't feel her mana pool needs to be addressed as this can be completely fixed through item pickups, whenever I play Empath there really is no issue with mana for me.. A Gravelocket alone fixes it, and there's also the options of Stormspirit, Tablet, RotT, Nome's, RoS, even Hellflower for a reliable mana pool. Again, this 'problem' she has with her mana only appears when she's being used as a hard support zero farm hop-in-carry all game ward b**** which again you shouldn't limit her to only being played this way. It's viable, but it isn't the only way to make use of her.

Last thing to point out for now, her wall is INCREDIBLY strong early on, it isn't only a wall, it's also basically a gauranteed 150 damage aoe Nuke provided you land it properly, even at skill level 1. It really isn't hard to use the wall so that a hero without an escape mechanism will take 3 seconds of damage from it. This is very under-estimated and very abusable especially in the earlier stages of the game.

So with all that said, I really think as of now she doesn't need changes made to make her more viable, players need to explore her more as a hero first instead of pigeonholing her role into full support 15 min no boots "ward-b****" and then classifying her as underpowered.

[Luknight]

I'd like to say that i don't like kraken and cthu charge going threw her wall, seriously can't you fix that ? Or make those charges going threw cliff, it's not like it was a tp that can go threw wall and cliff and whatever not like WA spell or chronos or magebane... I think that this make empath wall not balanced on the heroes of HoN !

[foxmindedguy]

I'd like to say that i don't like kraken and cthu charge going threw her wall, seriously can't you fix that ? Or make those charges going threw cliff, it's not like it was a tp that can go threw wall and cliff and whatever not like WA spell or chronos or magebane... I think that this make empath wall not balanced on the heroes of HoN !

I'd like to say that i don't like kraken and cthuLUPHANT charge going thrOUGH Pharoah's wall, seriously can't you fix that ? Or make those charges going thrOUGH cliff, it's not like it was a tp that can go thrOUGH wall and cliff and whatever not like WA spell or chronos or magebane... I think that this make Pharoah mummies not balanced on the heroes of HoN!

See what I did there?

[Brannock]

You know, I don't think I saw what you did there. It possibly was not obvious enough. I recommend bolding and underlining your subtle jabs next time.