[2.5.19] Empath

[[TGCH]n00buaddib]

Empath is fine. Dsham, glacius and nymph are just superior.

This.

I've played supports a lot (though admittedly not at a high level) and Empath is just...fun. Really strong in the laning phase due to essence link, you harass like no other. Later on, you sit in someone hopefuly competent and do your thing. Wall is fantastic, third skill is....ok. I've also come to love puzzlebox on her, becaues you have plenty of time to micro minions and you don't really need any survivability item Shammy, Glac and Nymph need to stay alive (grave locket, bracers, vestments and so on).

All that said though, I don't feel Empath has the impact on the game the above mentioned do. Powerful enough to (if played right) not be a liability and help the team a lot, but not as much as the others.

1500-1600 scrub, my 0,02$ for what they're worth

[[SsoW]make7Dast]

I think it's a little wierd that

Cthulhuphant can run through the wall with trampel and rampage with his first skill

[BILLERISH]

I think it's a little wierd that

Cthulhuphant can run through the wall with trampel and rampage with his first skill

Rampage magic immune, works through wall? What about

[[IaF]Skyve]

Magic Immunity won't allow you to walk through the wall.

In most cases heroes can get through the wall because they have an ability that binds them to a projectile - and projectiles can get through the wall just fine.

Could be wrong though.

[Master_One]

If emp does not run out of range with essence link active, it should stun anyway, when it runs out. this would make her more viable and fix the problems, when using ult.

[[NCRO]Ooglyboogly]

Rampage magic immune, works through wall? What about

It's because of the leap, nothing to do with magic immunity.

[MushidoZ]

Empath is a hero I love playing, but I believe she needs some changes to make her entirely functional. Here are my takes on the hero, and why I propose them.

My biggest issue with Empath has been addressed already, when she's in the game, the fight turns out to be 4 v 5, and her ult and skills do not justify the lack of a hero. Yes, she gives damage to the one she is ulting, but is that bonus damage and attack speed really equally the damage she would do if she was another hero attacking while the one she's linked to is also attacking? I don't think so.. I really don't. It also limits the gold she can get if she had any other kind of skill (from kills or killing creeps, etc.)

HP drain : This has been discussed and proposed already, I agree she should be able to have a second activation of the skill to activate the stun. She could even have a building up stun, where the stun will grow longer the longer the link is activated?

Wall : That wall is great, but could do some bonus damage to creeps so that can she farm some and manage to buy wards and auras, etc.

Aura : That thing doesn't need anything. It is mad strong on characters like devourer, etc.

Ultimate : To me, if my other suggestions were made, there is only one thing that should be added to her ult and that is that she should share the kill with the hero she is linked to (not just assist). Or at least get bonus gold to equal the gold the one she is linked to get when he gets the kill. Empath has no farming capability (or limited, let's say), and most of the time it is the one she linked to that gets the kill/gold, not her. She needs money to buy wards, she needs money to buy auras, she needs money not to die in 2 hits, etc. I believe she should share the kill with the one she is bonded to, no matter if it's her drain/wall that kills or if it's the one she ulted that dealt the finishing blow.

That's my view on the hero!

[greenman101]

Empath is bad for one reason: She removes a target from the field and makes the team fight a 4v5 while providing zero extra survivability to the carry she ulted. Now the enemy team is automatically focusing fire on a smaller number of targets which means those targets will die faster.

Fix that and she will be viable and you can talk about other changes.

[foxmindedguy]

Empath is bad for one reason: She removes a target from the field and makes the team fight a 4v5 while providing zero extra survivability to the carry she ulted. Now the enemy team is automatically focusing fire on a smaller number of targets which means those targets will die faster.

Fix that and she will be viable and you can talk about other changes.

No way in hell can a Tempest stun an Empath who is inside an ulted target or inside Chronos ultimate... I think such a strong invulnerability to disable warrants being a 4v5.

[supply_depot]

Empath is bad for one reason: She removes a target from the field and makes the team fight a 4v5 while providing zero extra survivability to the carry she ulted. Now the enemy team is automatically focusing fire on a smaller number of targets which means those targets will die faster.

Fix that and she will be viable and you can talk about other changes.

Using (Post magic armor) a 40-50 HPS life-steal that goes to the ulted hero, creating a wall to cut off enemies, giving a speed boost to escape, being able to use astrolabe or tablet THROUGH disables are all examples of amazing survival tactics Empath provides.

Defensively - her ult is like a free Shrunken Head for her. So there is one less body to absorb some single target attacks, but it does not really affect AE damage. Her absence won't cause people to take more damage unless it's something like Impalement / SB ult / MQ ult that is influenced by how many targets around. The carry might take 3 hits that would have been reserved for KOing Empath...but she can negate that with any of tactics I pointed out above.

Offensively - you lose a weak auto attack, and perhaps some positioning. Given her short range skill-set, though, Empath's best position is usually within the carry or initiator. (Yes, doesn't 100% have to be the carry. Emp can do some REALLY mean things in tandem ganker / initiators / tanks like Gauntlet, Deadwood, Morax, Armadon etc...)

Empath's biggest weakness comes from player error and poor coordination. She's unreliable for pubs.

[MushidoZ]

Here’s a comparison to make when dealing with Empath, as both characters fill a somewhat similar role with their skills.

Accursed (melee str – high hp)
Cauterize:

• Can heal a target
• Can damage a target
• Cheap mana cost
• Low cooldown
• Instantaneous
• Can be used to trigger fire shield or heal himself when ulting

Fire Shield:

• Makes a target or himself invulnerable
• Great to harass
• Great to farm
• Cheap mana cost
• Low cooldown
• Instantaneous

Sear:

• Gives 40 attack speed to all against target hit by accursed
• Gives 40 attack speed to all against target that hit accursed
• Gives +10 movement speed to accursed

Flame Consumption:

• Makes him invulnerable while active
• Makes him heal himself completely in 1 or 2 seconds if hit
• No cooldown
• Can attack freely when active
• Removes all debuff off accursed

Empath (ranged int – low hp)
Essence Link

• Heals and damages 65 hp X up to 5 seconds
• Can be used on self or ally (when ulting only)
• Twice the mana cost of cauterize
• Twice the cooldown of cauterize (2 cauterize = 500 hp healed or damaged, burst damage)

Illusory Veil

• Help chasing / setting up kills
• Deals 50 dmg X up to 6 seconds
• Long cooldown (18 seconds)

Synergy

• Makes all ally heroes gain 4 HP regen + a % of their max hp

As One

• Sacrifice your auto attack / a teamate (yourself) for up to 30 seconds
• Makes “you” invulnerable for up to 30 seconds
• Gives attack speed of 40/60/80%
• Gives bonus dmg of 40/60/80

What that comparison should show is that most of what empath does, accursed can do it (usually better, or in a more promixal use). What empath cannot do, however, is tank the entire team by herself, deal massive dmg by himself and give his attack speed to all allies rather than one single target. Accursed can also bash if he goes mace, as he is melee and has decent attack speed.

Early lane accursed is in my opinion a more dangerous harasser than empath is, can farm his gold with his shield, and is likely to lose 0 hp by the end of the lane phase. He can also shrug off the essence link by making it have his shield explode in empath’s face… (be it used on an ally or himself).

Mid game accursed is going to tank hard, and will still boost carries significantly with shields and heals, all the while giving attack speed and himself dealing damage (more damage than what a bonus 80 dmg (lvl 16) to an ally is gonna give).

End game accursed is going to tank more than hard, and will still have some use of his skills. Same as mid, more or less, except he will deal massive dmg by himself, which empath is never gonna achieve.

So the conclusions are, depending on how we see this issue:
If accursed is considered overpowered, he needs a nerf, and my comparison is invalidaded.
If empath is considered overpowered, then both accursed and empath need nerf, as accursed is much superior to her.
If empath is considered balanced, then accursed needs a nerf.
If accursed is underpowered, empath needs a buff.
If accursed is considered balanced, then empath needs a buff.

I personally think Empath is in need of changes. I proposed ideas last time I posted, and I still think those would be the best solutions to bring her to the strength of others with similar potential. She is such a fun hero to play, one of my favourites among the roster, but it’s a shame she does not have that little hmpf needed to make her shine when she should. As being a pure support, she really lacks the "support" other "supports" give. I just compared her with one of the sickest tanks in game... and he "supports" in the same fashion / better than her on almost all aspects, all the while being able to be used as a semi carry. Teams depend on accursed, empath depends on the team. Which one do you choose if your ONLY goal in to win? (I pick Empath for fun factor, but they're clearly not on the same strength scale)

[Alten]

Accursed and Empath are drastically different heroes. That comparison is invalid; though they may fill the same role of a super babysitter, and have some general similarities between their abilities, they are ultimately too different in what they provide and their function. Accursed is not superior to Empath, either. Accursed himself is often considered underpowered in comparison to other heroes like Jere or Dsham, and to make such a statement as to his power is invalid. Empath may be slightly underpowered, but any significant changes could easily push her into the most powerful support in the game. You people need to properly analyse Empath and what she provides; statements such as "taking a person away for the enemy to wail on" are simply invalid, and they serve only to promote a general stigma upon the community that Empath is weak when she's really not.

So much of your post was just a fallacy and a gross overestimation of accursed and what he actually does. I mean, you portrayed him practically as a melee carry, and significantly overplayed his capabilities. Accursed has long cast times, is melee, can be easily shut down because his survivability is based on active abilities, etc; these directly inhibit just how he performs, and to analyse everything he does just from a paper standpoint while failing to ultimately crunch the values of Empath is simply incorrect.

[[LsE]Hsssh]

Back before Empath was released i was playing around with dream and was brainstorming a support hero. She had hp regen aura and ulti that would allow her to hide in other heroes. Sounds familiar right? Anyway never figured out remaining two skills that could be fun and my hero was never finished or showed on dream. Then month or two later Empath was released. Obviously hp regen and ulti had their difference from what i had in mind but i fell in love with hero, played her extensively in 1300-1700 brackets and watched lots of "top tier" games with her. Why i'm writing this all? Well because i want to stress the point that i really like her.

So Empath, i think she sucks badly.

a) Her ulti is bullshit. It creates stupid scenarios where you are in DR, he gets stunned, you use stormspirit and he escapes with his ulti. Or you use astrolabe or tablet while being completely safe in your teammate. Idea that Empath can use her items in host is very dangerous and while she was being played received lots of hate for a good reason. Some items are very strong and are considered fine due to risk/skill/judgment attached to them, like being able to use astrolabe when it is truly needed and not when your ward ***** got hit by some **** for 150 damage. Being inside your teammate and immune to stuns makes it much safer to use these clutch items.

b) Her wall is probably her "best" skill and it is still stupid. There are actually only few places on map where you can block people off, well not counting scenarios where enemy is retarded and traps himself between trees with no runes of blight/hatchet. It takes around one second to side step her wall since you will usually try to place it on top of enemy to get max coverage(that is 325 units to both sides IIRC) unless enemy is running near cliff/trees for whatever reason. Damage is worthless since it does 50 per second, who is going to stay near wall for 5-6 seconds? Asides of rare situations where enemy traps himself or gets chain stunned near it. So best things about this skill is 800 cast range and fact that its good enough as one point drop.

c) Synergy is "strange"- hp regen is most useful early-mid game yet you have to get one level in wall and max Q over it since your treat level will be close to zero without them. You are also expected to babysit, ward, stack and do other **** so you are likely to stay low level for a while. Look at Glacius, back when mp was scare resources he was always going 1-1-4 build since his Q and W are very potent with one point drops.

d) Link is "in theory ****ing awesome but in practice not so much" skill. 330 damage, 330 heal and 2.5 stun? Nerf please. It does damage/heal over 5 seconds? Single target? Stun is positioning based? When you stun damage/heal ends? Not so hot anymore. Also considering cast time and that you can cast it from 550 range but break point is at 800 means that enemy will usually 1) see you coming 2) have around one second before you disable him to make his counter move unless he gets stunned by leading stun. It also has "high"(not sure what word to use) scaling, damage/heal increases over 3 times and stun from 1 to 2.5 seconds when you level it up from level 1 to 4.

e) Players can use her Q to cause fast stuns. Its also not that hard to get decent numbers from damage/heal and then stun. Trapping people with wall in ridiculous situations happens. Pulling clutch saves or doing some good offensive actions while using ulti? Happens. So whats the problem? With other heroes you don't have to dance around limitations of your skills like a monkey to get moderate results. Glacius dropping decent Q will most of the time do more work than Empath with Q and W combined.

f) When you use your ultimate it doesn't matter anymore that you can dance around limitations- your teammate now has to do that. Usually if jump into someone like Magebane he wants to focus people down and stun is always awesome for killing people. Well too bad that he has to move back 800 units from target to stun him.

I could go on but i think that i mentioned few key problems and i'll try to wrap this up:

Getting some items on her with activations is potentially game breaking yet she doesn't have any farming abilities- please don't talk about using wall for "average" farming since it would mean that you are maxing it over Q and E. Q has strong scaling so you have to put points into it yet maxing her E early would be "better".

I think that some of the problems could be solved if her Q scaling was slightly reworked(maybe 2sec stun on all levels?) so she could go 1-1-4 build without that much of a sacrifice while trying to solve potential game breaking problems with her ulti would probably require heavy reworks.

[SirVH]

His point of view is valid, a little respect would be nice.

[Alten]

And probably completely broken. If Empath is allowed constant access to pkey because she takes no damage while ulting, then that means whatever hero she occupies becomes effectively unkillable with an instant cast blink that is completely unnullifiable. That doesn't even take into account the power she gains in being able to effectively manipulate essence link and being better able to position herself to cast effective barriers.

[skeloperch]

Err... I am against this idea and Alten put it quite well as to why that would make her a little too strong. As for your desire to manipulate your host's position, you can still get Push Book and activate it on the hero you went inside to give them a leap.

What, you don't like being able to jump half a lane in a second?

Anyways, I don't see Empath as being very weak (except for her Q, which needs a nerf revert), unless you want to keep her low leveled forever. She becomes magical with levels. Her E turns everyone into Ra, her W makes her a better dispositioner than Behemoth potentially, and her ultimate is a huge thing for a support to have (invulnerability and the ability to catch up to the fight). At least she isn't like Bramble and can actually be useful in lane, even when enemies aren't engaging on her or her ally.

Oh yeah, and Pred + Empath is still mondo bullshit.

[Area11]

Nomad mirage strike actually can pass through Empath wall...it's a walking illusion o_O
I think this is a bug.

[PrestonLee]

Empath is one of the few heroes S2 actually did a good job on, potentially very good, often very under-estimated, but not game-breaking. She's fine atm leave her alone.

[[IaF]Skyve]

It would be really awesome if people could back their claims up with actual reasoning on why they do feel things are the way they describe them to be.

Otherwise we might as well call Empath a schnitzel and close the thread.

[PzKw]

Empath is a schnitzel.