As the title says, when (in your opinion) must/should monkey be upgraded? I've seen some people upgrade it before the match even starts, with their starting gold, some a few minutes in the game, some...never because they're busy farming for alc bones on Nymphora or Thunderclaw for Rhapsody.
I think upgrading courier with your starting gold is a waste, since no one will use it that soon. Unless they forgot to buy items in which case they just plain suck. When supporting on a lane, you can easily wait out those 2 min and upgrade it as soon as you get 200gp.
What's your take on this?
This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found--I have letters that even the blind will be able to see. . . I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,- I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race. . .
As a support player myself i always start with upgrading courier, buying 1 ward, 1 hp pot, 3 rune of bliths and 2 mana pots. i guess i could try buying courier later on but in the most games i play the mid player pretty much always buy early bottle at around 2 min mark. but as u pointed at out, it's at 2 min so it's not being use untilthat point. i'm gonna try buying something else in start now guess i'll go for some totems or something else. But if i dont like it i'll just go back to upgrading courier early ^^
As soon as possible. If you don't do it with your starting money it's your first 200 gold.
Forum Moderators are not Frostburn Studios employees. My posts in no way represent the view of Frostburn Studios or any of its staff.
Please use the report post function to have me review a post that you believe is breaking the Forum Rules.
Check the Sticky Threads for additional information on this sub-forum and the Announcement Threads for more information about Heroes of Newerth as a whole!
some mid players are rushing the bottle, so they will be needing that courier even in less then 2 minutes, so upgrading courier with starting gold is not that waste.
Also you can face suicide lane where you will not be even able to gather that gold in first 2 minutes.
I am always upgrading courier with that starting gold
Cmon, we are talking about pubs here. Don't upgrade the courrier at start, wait for your first 200g in lane then do it. Buy wards first, some stats and regen to survive the lane. The courrier can wait 1 min.
As a support, I spend my gold on at start so my team stand no chance to rage on me for
1. no upgrade cour -> they can't get their item quick and lose lane
2. no ward -> mid can't see rune and lose mid
3. getting 4~5 ck from lane-mate who is probably a carry or who think a support should only deny+harasses
If you're the only support soloqueuing, I just buy wards, & save 100+gold from my starting items and upgrade the courier after I get that 100 gold (most likely after like 87 seconds since after you get 2xmanapot, Tango, healthpot you're left with 113gold).
In higher level games or when playing w friends as the only support I do both at the starts though. Using a courier to scout before warding a pull etc can be crucial to not getting lusted.
Just remember that there is nothing more annoying for a mid player to see the courier walking to a sidelane with 1 healthpot or smth, pre-upgraded, when mid still needs bottle+boots.
Not getting your bottle when you need it can be annoying as ****.
Asap; I upgrade the courier the moment I have enough the extra money (if it hasn't been upgraded yet), even if I'm a carry. You'll see me do this a lot if you're in a game with me. Why? It's better that your team gets their items ASAP rather than 3-4 people having to wait two minutes to get their item on the courier and just plain delay everyone's items while they have a harder time in lane without their item than they should be. This in turn can cause your whole team to possibly lose/not win a lane where they SHOULD'VE won easily (especially mid), and losing that snowballing advantage Is usually the difference between an easy win and a drawn out game, I kid you not.
It doesn't matter what role you're playing, if your support isn't going to upgrade it early on you already know he's pretty bad, just upgrade it so your mid/solo lanes don't have to bother waiting for the courier for over a minute to get their crucial pickups (early bottle/more regen/stats/boots etc) usually because some idiot wanted to courier over a crushing claw or ward on a walking courier to himself 2 min in. you can ask your team supports to upgrade courier nicely, but if they don't then don't bother getting mad, just upgrade it yourself.
Also, how many times have you got put into a situation where you easily won your lane, and you're waiting on the courier to bring you your steamboots/bottle/big amount of stats that will gaurantee you a snowball complete rape in your lane, but then some idiot from another lane manages to get the walking courier killed (again usually couriering over something that they could've got in the outpost..)? don't know about you but even in 1800 mmr there're still games where you get THAT idiot on your team, and 1-2min your courier dies setting your whole team WAY behind even if you were winning. Don't risk putting your team into that situation, just upgrade it ASAP.
So in short, upgrade it as soon as feasibly possible, especially if you're support. You don't have to do it at the very beginning so you can buy more stats to help you have a stronger presence in the first few min, but then upgrade it ASAP (literally your next 200 gold) so that your entire team can get their items much faster and also allow them to courier over emergency regen at a whim. again, it's small things like this that can be the difference between a difficult game and an easy win.
Last edited by PrestonLee; 04-17-2012 at 11:37 AM.
Upgrade it asap... You can use it to scout your jungle and see if mid will be getting ganked... It also helps out your mid lane because he will get his items faster instead of waiting for that slow walking courier
Thing is this: 200 g AFTER ur starting gold is around 3-4 last hits + some g/sec. If u take a few early last hits from the carry u are sitting, you are failing. If you wait 200 sec until u get 200 g, it's IMO a bit late.
Your mid (and eventually your carry) will need the upped cour for that < 2 min bottle. You dont buy bottle first as mid. You farm it and you ferry it. Before first rune spawns.
You should imo upp the cour before game starts (assuming u dont have to get both wards and cour that is)
Especially in particular heroes like Ophelia, Glacius, Tempest, Engineer blah blah etc. I will opt to aim for a very early first blood, and in these cases those extra minor totems/mana battery that early on allow you to be MUCH more aggressive than you'd normally be able to and press on for that easy first-blood which will get both you and your carry ahead from the beginning (while again, still giving you money for courier upgrade early on ); and at the very least even if your gank fails you still have the option of just killing neutrals for the courier upgrade money. Lastly, if the pull wasn't warded, you can usually squeeze in that first 200 gold from the neutrals pull spot.
Not saying you're wrong at all, and getting that early flying courier can also give many advantages like mentioned above in higher level play (using courier to scout ganks etc.) but there are also definitely ways of getting that 200g after your starting gold without it being late, especially if you're a gank/roaming-oriented support hero.
I would suggest getting flying at the start of the game. No exceptions. Minor totems dont help getting first blood. You either get it or not, but chances are you won't. Ophelia doesnt need minor totems to first blood. Ophelia is actually one of those heroes that can upg courier and buy 2 wards and it doesnt hurt her potential one bit. On all levels of play, early flying lets you scout for fb attempts @ mid or see the lane compositions they made. Not to mention that everyone in here probably had smth ferried by a walking courier and it got killed. Or people ferrying mana potion to the long lane, while you have to w8 2 more minutes before u get a bottle @ mid.
No! Get flying at start, it's as important as early wards.
Those minor totems, mana battery, and a blight (which you eat just BEFORE you go in for the gank) can allow you to be MUCH more aggressive than otherwise normal and actually catch people who aren't prepared for it completely off guard (as like you said, decent Ophelia's tend to upgrade courier+buy two wards; but if you have an Ophelia just completely diving you during the first :30-40 seconds of the game with a much higher survivability rate than normalto be able to just completely commit and outlast an enemy player in an auto-attack battle).
This is just one example and it can apply to several different situations/heroes as well, basically those extra stats give you more leeway to commit in an all-out dive and come out on top in an auto-attack exchange; usually those extra seconds it takes to realize that you have more stats over the enemy player will give you enough time to secure a first blood by cutting off their escape route and with a ranged hero.
Of course, I understand that this tends to be less viable in higher level play (with smarter players), and like you said, early flying lets you use bird as a scout for ganks and all that (and those smarter players may even just use the bird like you said to scout your Ophelia gank early on).
But at least in lower level play (the brackets that most of the people who read these strategy forums play in) a lot of my successful first blood ganks come from doing exactly what I just mentioned above (stack minor totems+mana battery and eat a blight just before ganking), and that first blood and lane dominance early on usually secures that the game goes extremely well and pretty much guarantees a lane win along with that early gold for the courier upgrade.
I like to plan my support items such that I'm left with about 100 gold. Since you get 1 gold every 0.875 seconds, you will be able to upgrade the courier after 90 seconds from gold ticks alone.
By waiting until 93 seconds in to upgrade courier you are able to save 106 extra gold to start.
2 minor totems
2 mana potions for you and/or lane partner
1 health potion for you or lane partner
1 extra ward if you are sole support
I'm only a 1700 player, and in that bracket I have yet to get a complaint by waiting 90 seconds to upgrade. I do, however, get appreciation from using that extra health potion to bring my carry lane partner back to full health early game.
As mentioned earlier, upgrading courier immediately is great for high tier matches where you actually use the courier to scout. However at my level of play this never happens.
Last edited by MacroHard; 04-17-2012 at 08:46 PM.
When I was younger I had an imaginary friend.
Now, with Facebook, I have hundreds of imaginary friends.
On how many other people are able to buy wards. If they can, upgrade right away. If not, then don't upgrade right away.
Do it before mid gets their bottle. I have killed countless walking couriers as a support going to gank mid. Walking cours lose games (leads to rage quitters quite often).
1st support buy 2x wards at begin and 2nd support upgrade courier , and GG
Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy.
200 out of the starting gold well worth it for the reduced chance of someone getting the little bastard killed...
In those rare times (like on my ****-around free acct) where I'm not supporting, I still upgrade it "as soon as lack of upgrade starts to piss me off" because chances are nobody else will. :P
There are so many reasons for using the first 200 gold you've to upgrade the courier.
It's excellent to scout with, you can scout their lanes, where which hero will go, if their jungle hero might go into your, to stop creeps from spawning in their jungle. Also when you are warding, using the courier to scout ahead is almost mandatory. If you do not do this, you will probably die 10% of every time you try to ward in the other teams jungle.
You also have to take into account that if you die with the only support on your team, you are left without an upgraded courier for a long while, so long someone else HAVE to upgrade it, else your mid hero will lose the lane, and so will probably the other lanes as well (and all this because you are stubborn to save a few gold).
And there are probably more reasons too that I am not thinking about as well.
There are obviously some positives too, but as far as I can see there really isn't any debate. Whenever I play support (which nowadays is rarely) I will always upgrade the courier with my starting gold.
Have fun supporting!