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He's referring to the time where old OP hotbl/vanguard sat in the same position it did for a very very VERY long time, and was considered bloodhunter-tier in terms of item worth.Originally Posted by Nine_Cloak
You're either ignorant of this, or not wanting to debate the underlying point he made in fear of looking stupid - and trying to deflect.
As for offering anything new, he doesn't. He just offers long range on a relatively immobile platform, with an aoe damage and slow - only his biggest range poke is through a spell instead of his boosted autoattack range. The hero is designed in such a way that he almost completely overlaps Flint in capability, the same way that Draconis overlaps Forsaken Archer. A monkey could see this.
I'm referring to the time where he neglected to mention that it is no longer a viable item for a good majority of heroes, even those it was considered core on. I appreciate the armchair psych.
A carry who's attack damage carries over to a spell which is his bread and butter is something unprecedented in HoN. If we're going to list spells out in the blandest way possible, I think even a monkey would realize that it sounds like everything's been done.As for offering anything new, he doesn't. He just offers long range on a relatively immobile platform, with an aoe damage and slow - only his biggest range poke is through a spell instead of his boosted autoattack range. The hero is designed in such a way that he almost completely overlaps Flint in capability, the same way that Draconis overlaps Forsaken Archer. A monkey could see this.
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...1#post15041731 is the thread I made regarding the same point you bring up at the end of your post.
I was buried by being thrown into the pre-release discussion thread before I got more than 2 responses. I'm well aware he outshines Flint, but that's not what this artillery speculation thread is about.As I've explained to a few people already, I think Artillery fits fine with the lore. Nor do I have a problem with the fact that this is the third agility hero in a row, as I love agility heroes and know that there was lots of empty space in the agility hero pool. I actually have no idea why either of those are such big issues to people when there's a much, much larger problem with Artillery.
So far, Artillery's role has not been stated by S2. In the teaser, it advertises him as "a ranged agility hero" and in the spotlight it advertises him as "a ranged agility machine". Inititally I had figured he'd be an agility ganker/support much like Blitz, but after seeing the spotlight and the summary of the video...
...Which, sounds to me, like a ranged agility carry. Again, no issue with that whatsoever. Ranged agility carries are fun for me to play and can do plenty of work, especially with a cooperative team.
My issue with Artillery is this; if Artillery is a ranged agility carry that outranges towers and specializes in long-rage combat, coming equipped with both a long range slow and a medium range aoe stun, what reason is there to pick the already outshined? As a few of you know, there is a balance discussion going on for Flint Beastwood in the balance forums right now. It's very clear he is no longer the crowned king of ranged carries, nor has he been picked competitively since JoshP was playing the game. It seems like this hero would've (and could've) been a simple remake for Flint Beastwood, and now all we have is two heroes in the same pool that butt into each other. Not in a good way.
I am aware that it states clearly that his Q does not carry orb effects, but I don't think that's enough to stop the rest of the hero from being a carry. Even if he were only a semicarry (which is a longshot), it's very likely he'd have much more of an impact in any game played by players of equal skill than Flint Beastwood.
I personally am all for Artillery being a hero itself, and I am an avid supporter of HoN distancing itself from DotA by remaking heroes like they did with Rampage and Vindicator, but before I blitz my way to the suggestion forums I am curious to see if S2 foresaw this and what their opinion on the matter is.
"Making fun of HoN is like making fun of George Bush. It has become the stupid mans joke and anyone with a pulse can have a good guffaw and think they are intellectually superior as they continue to roll around in their own feces." -[DRD]TheSopranosCheck out my HoN Dream Hero here: http://dream.heroesofnewerth.com/hero/Nine_Cloak/Cloak2
Artillery is bland and broken and he shares a common abbreviation with Artesia. Not a fan at all of the hero.
Has a rubber duck named "Mr. Quackers."
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Um.....right. I don't think we're talking about the same game here anymore, but that's ok - f=13 allows anyone to express their opinion.
Yeah, you're clueless. This isn't worth anyone's time replying to.Type: PhysicalRange: 300
Radius: 200
Cast Time: 1.0 Seconds
Mana Cost: 90
Cooldown: 15.0 / 13.0 / 11.0 / 9.0 Seconds
Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Activation
Deals 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 plus Attack Damage to affected enemies per Dash.
I think that he is balanced/ close to balanced.
Here is the thing with LRM. It takes skill and practice to use effectivly. And a slight amount of luck. For the luck part; if the server you are playing on is at all slow, it will start to significantly impact your ability to use LRM. This is because of a variable delay on the server and as a result requires a little luck in leading with LRMs. Now, if you are fortunate enough to be able to use LRMs on a team that is stun-locked, this isn't a problem. Also, because LRM scales of attack damage, you will need to focus build those over survivability items to get the ABSOLUTE most out it as EARLY as possible, if that is what you want to do. This trade-off could work, but would make you oh so squishy. Id agree that if you can hit multiple people for the full duration of the spell, that you will potentially do OP amounts of damage. However, How often is those situations going to arise? They need specific team composition to set up and luck. At lower skill levels, that might be asking for too much.
Bunker down seems fine. It needed to trigger mana batteries through.
I actually think is ult is under powered. I would suggest that either the cool down for the ult is lowered, the mana cost lowered, range increased, or area of effect increased. the first to would probably have a bigger effect than the last two ideas.
Hey, Take a look at this: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...13612-Spyglass
Everyone was a noob at one point. The true measure is if you are working on getting better.
@PionusMan Frost Burn, Geometer's +Frostwolf, Nullstone all don't sacrifice power for survivability. Also, that "specific team composition" is as basic as having Magmus or another initiator like Pharoah in the team. Initiator is an important role and crucial to competitive teams making the good LRM situation ideal, and since this game is balanced in respect to competitive play then lower bracket difficulties or situations don't hold much weight.
I would agree that those items do provide survivability. However, I guess my point was that to get the MOST benifit as EARLY as possible, you would probably have to build items like Shieldbreaker, Savage Mace, Riftshards, or another VERY high damage boost item. Of course you are unlikely to rush this items on him. he needs items like nullstone or assasins shroud for the survivability aspect.
I would agree that Magmus or Pharoah would make your LRMs more potent. In higher level games, better team compositiion is usually a given. This is why the potentially could be OP. However, I wouldn't mind them staying the same. That way, artillery might actually be one of the newer heros to receive competitive play. It seems that in competitive play (at least in games I watched), that the hero pool of heros actually used is relatively small (like only 1/3 of heros are used competitively, but don't take that figure to the bank). It would be nice if that hero pool was expanded. Also, If you are among the high skill levels, then you probably have the skill and team coordination to take advantage of artillery's weaknesses.
I guess it would be nice to have some of the pros comment on this forum and what their opinion is.
Hey, Take a look at this: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...13612-Spyglass
Everyone was a noob at one point. The true measure is if you are working on getting better.
With just Ghost Marchers and 2x Soulscream Ring Artillery reaches about 100 attk damage at lvl 7, enough to squeeze out 180+ dps with lvl 4 LRM. Thats already very strong, rivaling Swiftblade's Blade Frenzy, but anything beyond this starts becoming insanely OP. They should introduce static damage to retain LRM early game power but reduce its late-game power. Its the scaling, scaling spells tend to be broken S2 knows this :I The scaling is my only concern as this is speculation and Artillery has not been in play long enough to merit any big suggestions.
He does too much damage with LRM, so make it only scale with base damage, and make it so bunker down gives the bonus to LRM, It'd make him not increadibly overpowered with items like doombringer, and other damage items. We've determined that's he OP and this is the best way I think to nerf him without becoming trash tier.
"Greenman101, spittin opinions like they're facts since '11 yo" -ZipperBear 2013
I honestly do like that LRM allows him to scale somewhat better with pure damage items. If you make it only base damage he will have to get agility items, and the attack speed on those in general means that his auto-attacks will be better than LRM faster.
I also originally though that Geometer's Bane was in his reccomended build because Bunker Down works with illusions, and got pretty disappointed with the result (not entirely sure if tje base damage increase works, the range doesn't).
Overall he seems interesting, the comparison to Swiftblade somewhat makes sense (you even use a similar set of skills to get the most out of it). For competitive play I could see him used as a dual lane (sidelane) picked with the intent of completely pushing any opposition out of the lane by utilizing any stun/slow combos and LRM.
His skillbuild seems to be pretty flexible. I'd often even consider only getting one level in LRM as it only triples in the damage scaling but doesn't increase the fixed base damage of 240 over the duration of the skill, and since the slow gets pretty strong and has the potential to give you more hits overall, both, with regular attacks and LRM and with Bunker Down giving you more range and damage, leveling up LRM only seems really viable in a situation where you know you will hit the majority of your rocktes (so basically in a non-solo situation).
Overall I actually like the hero much more than I thougjt I would. His ultimate still feels more generic than it should be. It also alleviates the weakness of the hero which is somewhat of a negative in my book.
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Ok, the ulti doesn't fit in with his other skills very well, maybe that should be changed, but the question now, is how?
"Greenman101, spittin opinions like they're facts since '11 yo" -ZipperBear 2013
It's not that it doesn't fit in (guarantees almost 3 seconds of rockets to hit, maybe more). It's more problematic because it fits too well - creates distance for a hero that needs it and gives a reliable stun to a hero with a swiftblade-like early damage skill.
Overall his skillset/early potential could be compared to giving swiftblade a reliable slow and stun, which is quite possibly the reason why so many people think him OP - because he does everything he needs himself, which makes him 'easy'.
Similar to how Gunblade is designed - he has one skill that gives him bonus damage while in melee range, and then 3 skills that cover every potential weakness that could come from that.
Forum Moderators are not S2 Games employees. My posts in no way represent the view of S2 Games or any of its staff.
Please use the report post function
Check the Sticky Threads for additional information on this sub-forum and the Announcement Threads for more information about Heroes of Newerth as a whole!
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Artillery's ult is quite similar to MoA's Acid/green Q spell (the one that causes knockback) and Tablet in that regard, yet is not limited like those two. It truly does fit too well as a defensive stun/ Tablet boost, and an easy aoe stun for an ult on a (semi) carry doesn't look well balanced atm.
PS. I am relating this aoe stun in regards to Gladiator's skill-based Call to Arms and Geomancer's Crystal Field.
Last edited by KingIsRey; 04-24-2012 at 12:38 PM.
I agree with PrestonLee on some points. I believe "bunker down" should have some sort of cost. Bunker down only costs 10 mana so it's pretty much like arachna's slow, use it every single time it's off CD. To those of you who say LRM is not very good, get a savage mace and/or a shieldbreaker or firebrand/geometer's. Any of those items or all of those items will result in LRM completely raping everyone. Late game however, I tend to use LRM less and less, because bunker down + auto attacks (when combined with his passive slow and even better when paired with frostburn/frostwolf) will do all the work you need to do. I only use LRM mid and late game to blast away a wave of creeps for quick farm (and I don't see why using over 100 mana to destroy one creep wave is OP, when any other carry can get an item like mock/runed cleaver to do it in less time with less mana used), or in a large fight where the enemy heroes are grouped together tightly.
The reason LRM is not overpowered is because any wrong choice of positioning on your part prior to channeling will result in your death, and any hero that wants to pk beside you or use a tablet on you will also make your LRM worthless.
The ult can make his positioning in a fight awkward, and late game is pretty worthless insofar as damage. I've noticed that even early game, a combination of ult and then LRM will usually NOT be enough to take out an enemy hero, and for that reason I usually save it for a large group of enemies (which is rare), or to escape (usually the best use for it). I don't use the ult as often as I could for those reasons.
I think Art would be more balanced if:
A) LRM's damage percentile were slightly lowered
Maybe B) LRM could not be used to take out enemy creep seige weapons (ballista/cannon)
C) Bunker down cost more mana, so that instead of spamming E when the cd was off, you actually had to use smart planning to decide when and where to use it.
I totally wouldn't mind swapping the ultimate and LRM. It'd allow more liberal use of its defensive mechanic and it would justify LRM's damage scaling. It'd also justify a shorter cooldown on the stun.
Last edited by Beroya; 04-24-2012 at 07:41 PM.
Moon called Artillery the hardest carry in the game.
I cant really say that he is op or anything. Go mid with him against Devourer, u will call for cc15...
Being a static target due to the skills while not having something useful as Tempest makes him so dependent from positioning...
Btw Flint has still more range with his passive without being a static target. But can he really solo Kongor with his LRM?
I think his farming abillity is fine, though I think more of it as a pushing ability as I understand something else by static farm.
My opinion: He is balanced.
This is so freaking lol. Vs a devo you just max bunker down first (1/2/4 skill build) and completely harass him out of the lane. He'll never even have a chance. Again, the people who think he is balanced really REALLY lack basics of this game. :/
I've actually started playing him now (decided to use my last 500 gold on him) and I'm finding he's WAAAAY too versatile, you can play him like a support the whole game but then you get later game he just takes over with any sort of teamplay (stuns) just by how monstrously overpowered his lrm is with some damage pickups. oR you can just play him like a hardcarry and get supported by your team and just win the game by spamming Q in the back. Either way.
Still completely under the opinion that lrm's scaling is broken. And yes, he is currently the hardest carry in the game if you play him right. It's just if you suck then of course you're gonna feed cuz he's squishy, doesn't change that he has a 1500 range retargetable line aoe attack that's capable of doing like 500 damage TO ALL TARGETS per second Rofl :/
Edit:
I agree with these, like I said in my first post I think just changing some numbers will balance him out nicely. lowering the damage scaling a bit and actually making bunker down cost a significant amount of mana (not freaking static 10, maybe 10/20/30/40) to use would probably put him into acceptable just off that IMHO. Still unpolished, but at least acceptable balance-wise IMO.
Last edited by PrestonLee; 04-24-2012 at 09:51 PM.
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FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY~!
Don't worry guys, Lodestone won't be getting picked up in competitive, your balance forum regulars have assured it in this Lodestone balance thread ;)
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?470528-Lodestone-First-Impressions&p=15618341&viewfull=1#post15618341
how about creating 2 different situation with his ult, which consist of long range and short range activation (like engineer keg).
Long range: Ult does more damage, less stun duration, artillery doesn't get pushed back.
Short range: Ult does less damage, more stun duration, artillery get a pushback (just like engineer keg, but has more minimum range).
This will make artillery able to choose what are he gonna do with his ult.
I think LRM is quite ok since the enemy need to ate most of the missile in order to get maximum damage, which is why your partner need to stun the target, and any target that stunned/disabled is obv an easy target to everyone not just artilery. I just hate the aoe slow which is very annoying.
@Preston: So does cthulu, midas, and ra. But yeah LRM is a beast once you got enough dmg + dat bunker down. Perhaps this skill needs a tweak, but don't just hit the nerf like what they did on gemini.
Last edited by Keris; 04-24-2012 at 09:56 PM.
Lol artilery it's ok to me
Last edited by _BIGboss_; 04-24-2012 at 10:09 PM.
dw punch!
I would say Artillery, when played well, has the tools to be a go to, reliable carry due to LRM scaling. Most importantly, though, is that passive 35% stacking slow. Passive slow on a ranged carry? Come on, Artillery is gonna kite all day by pimping that Geometer's + Frostwolf combo (which provides plenty survivability). Remeber how unbalanced ranged carries/FWS were pre FWS nerf(s)...
Also, it's not like Artillery will have a difficult time with positioning or is he completely dependent on it. LRM has long 1500 range (ex: lvl 1 FB Money Shot), longer than Portal Key and, say, Devourer's hook; he can practically snipe of enemy Portal Key. Yet, as been said, Artillery can also deal consistent damage w/o LRM.
Now, compare this to Voodoo Jester who only has 1000 range combined (300 cast range, + 700 on Spirit Ward) on his Spirit Ward which is his main form of DPS. As a VJ player, take my word for it: He is in trouble if he doesn't have good positioning. Ultimately, Artillery has a safeguard in the form of the ult to jump out of situations, and its not like an aoe stun is ever a bad thing.
Also, FB doesn't gain base damage from his passive compared to Artillery's Bunker. Artillery can admirably keep on pressure from 800 range and LRM in comparison to FB.
Last edited by KingIsRey; 04-25-2012 at 08:21 AM.
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