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Great initiative. I would have liked to donate a little bit, but apparently my card isn't eligible for some reason.
@ Gojnas
I think its the nature of mankind to get better,
better at school, better at work, better at sports. Wich kind of sport isn't relevant at all.
Of course you are right, it should not be excessive and of course not influence the health. But honestly dropping of school cause of gaming is plain stupid. Parents should look after their kids. I didn't meant the kids should play 24/7 in an internet café and drop cardiopulmonary-related dead. That's simply not true.
I heard in china were serveral deaths cause of gaming too.
We should differ between excessive gaming and practice for getting a progamer somewhere. And don't tell me there is no difference between those things. Of course you should still go to school/work/party's hang out with firends etc.
I belive it is possible to become a pro player without getting sick or addicted or whatever.
The sad thing is, I also believe you are right that this is not and will not be ( if this is correct :P ) the norm in society for a long time.
Thanks again for your answer! I will think more about it
Originally Posted by Gojnas
We should chat about this on stream sometime; I'd love to have an intelligent conversation about it.. I feel like we really can't communicate effectively on the forums at this point. andrew.campbell325, any time mate!
I love the fact that at least, some people still have hopes for our ''dying'' competetive scene <3 much love
I'm largely agreeing with your post, I have some objections however.@ Gojnas
I think its the nature of mankind to get better,
better at school, better at work, better at sports. Wich kind of sport isn't relevant at all.
Of course you are right, it should not be excessive and of course not influence the health. But honestly dropping of school cause of gaming is plain stupid. Parents should look after their kids. I didn't meant the kids should play 24/7 in an internet café and drop cardiopulmonary-related dead. That's simply not true.
I heard in china were serveral deaths cause of gaming too.
We should differ between excessive gaming and practice for getting a progamer somewhere. And don't tell me there is no difference between those things. Of course you should still go to school/work/party's hang out with firends etc.
I belive it is possible to become a pro player without getting sick or addicted or whatever.
The sad thing is, I also believe you are right that this is not and will not be ( if this is correct :P ) the norm in society for a long time.
Thanks again for your answer! I will think more about it
What I was trying to show was the negative effects of legitimizing gaming as a sport/job on society as a whole.
And I will argue that the net benefit to society of having a legitimized eSport scene does not outweigh the net negative effects that it brings.
A successful gamer who goes pro contribute + - 0 to the overall society, meaning he/she has an income and is not dependent on any form of governmental aid (or family) in order to support their own living.
But for every successful one there is a couple of individuals who arent as succesful and ends up dependent upon governmental intervention or family. Giving up school in order to pursue a gaming career might seem excessive but it happens, I'm not saying it wouldn't have happened anyway but giving already unmotivated individuals even more incentives to not go to school is damaging the society in the long run and even more destructive for the individual in question. Some people gives up school anyway but as you can see in the linked article from South Korea, gaming related drop offs got more common. Also they trained 1047 councelors in order to deal with the situation,
wages and training being paid by money that has to be taken from somewhere else in society. (then take into account the cost and burden of the families which have to provide for the individuals)
Of course there are people who are able to game in a reasonable amount most people can actually, I'm not disputing that. But studies show an increase in people who aren't able to spend a reasonable amount playing games, and they are the problem. They end up not having an education / loosing their job and unless they have a family willing to take care of them they or might end up on goverment aid.
The laws discouraging more than 3 hours of gaming in China is based on the same thinking involved in laws restricting underage people from drinking, they are not there to restrict the individuals that are able to drink responsibly but to protect the ones who cannot. It's called harmreduction no law can ever stop underage people from drinking but you can try to discourage from it.
That's why I think it is a bad thing to legitimize eSport as something other than a past time, a hobby, something you do when you come home from work/school. Introducing money as incentives to become competitive and play a game can lead to negative consequenses for people who:
1. cannot control their gaming.
2. are unmotivated to study / work and
3. a combination of 1 and 2 who are looking for "ez" money
Yeah! Because people shouldn't be payed for their time, dedication, commitment, loyalty, devotion, or hard work. Video games should only be played for fun... Wait...
/sarcasm
But really you have no damn clue as to how a competitive scene worked. If there were no prizes or or money involved in tournaments/events, there would literally be no incentive or motivation for people to play in them. Fun and recreation maybe? Yeah... Try getting 40+ people (thats 8+ teams) to meet and stay for an event just because they want to have fun. LOL damn the very thought is childish.
However you're right about one thing:
The influx of new players into the competitive scene is low because the community is awful, intolerant to new players and no $4500 tournament in the world is going to change that.
The reason why it's gotten that way is obvious. Months after months after months of shitty tournaments, poor coverage of the tournaments, and the always anticipated 'SoonTour'.
Great initiative.
The only solid mistake S2 has done is Purchase->F2P and releasing so many heroes so fast. The rest are just speculations and already mad people spinning off fairytales.
Donating 10 asap.
BIG thank you to all the people who have supported and continue to do so! Supporting the competitive scene of HoN is not only done so by donating money. Of course we appreciate if you do, but you can support just as much just by watching the streams and voicing your support!
It's been great watching the streams the past days as you notice a lot more teams scrimming etc. You also see "old" people return and naive as some people tell me that I am, I choose to believe that this is a good sign!
So again, thank you guys! Keep donating if you want to support us. I'll see you out there in the channels and games!
With love
Mia
MsMia, why don't you answer your pm's? v_v
Ouch, didn't even realize I had one! I replied. Sorry for the delay.
Btw catch me on Skype: eivissa3006 instead. Much more reliable way to get in touch with me fast. :>
Firstly, getting paid for time, dedication, commitment, loyalty, devotion and hard work in engaging in recreational activities is not the norm nor financially viable in a society. Bark all you want, millions and millions of people all around the world do this all the time, spending billions of $, time, dedication, commitment, loyalty, devotion and hard work in activities which will never amount to any of them getting paid to do it. Just for the fun of the activity, this has to be recognized as a fact even within the gaming community.
Secondly, It's not my lack of "understanding" how the competitive scene works which is the problem. It's the competitive scenes' lack of basic concepts of reality (as is evident from your post) , lack of basic economical understanding, lack of proper organizational structures and understanding as to why this is imperative in order to attract sponsors and funding and a lack of sustainable businessmodels.
Your argument boils down to the usual tripe about how it's up to someone else (probably s2), somewhere else to put in effort and money to keep the scene going when in reality its up to the scene itself to find viable and sustainable businessmodels and organizational structures in order to keep itself going. There will always be new games and new scenes and gamedevelopers know this, which makes it a "high risk/high cost"-strategy to invest in the competitive scene since they really have no other way to compete (since its impossible to be motivated to compete without getting paid to do it according to you) with other developers other than a prizemoney war which results in them losing parts of their profits. Profits which they need in order to expand, balance and produce new games and content but instead will have to be used to pander to some 2-3% of the total community and will likely just become a very lucrative market for journeyman "pro" gamers. It's even possible that it makes them unable to pay their running costs such as wages and office rent which ultimately would lead to them having to shut down. But I guess in the mind of a "pro"gamer this is not a problem since it's not the gameplay and fun thats important, there is always another game, another scene, where ezmoney can be made.
In the end companies respond to the prospect of profits and good businessplans, they are not wellfare agencies. Welcome to reality, now deal with it.
/ No idea if you are serious or not, for future reference, here's a tip: Do not use sarcasm and / or irony on messageboards, it gets lost since other people do not read the content of your posts in the same way/tone that you imagine in your head while writing the post. State, clearly, what you want to say. None here is intrested in what you didn't mean or implied to say and that only leads to confusion and derailment.
I support the competitive HoN scene by watching the matches. If advertisers are not interested in that viewer pool... well cant help it then. Im not gonna start throwing free lunch money to kiddies.
quick question, would you be willing to pay a monthly subscription fee in order to watch the matches?
retract
Last edited by Blaity; 04-20-2012 at 08:28 AM.
Please visit my thread if your tired of not having any pants http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=401955
Maybe this game would be more competitive if it had a LAN mode, a lack of which makes HoN a third world game. A local LAN I attend hosts tournaments and they only have tournaments for games which have a LAN mode because the internet connection isn't very good to sustain 200ish people. They neglected to have tournaments for Starcraft 2 on the basis that it has no LAN mode. Not everyone is lucky enough to live in a capital city or ****, even a place that has solid connections and S2 have the idea that only the top 10 teams matter.
F2P then killed the game and ensured it will never become competitive. If you are unlucky enough to not have a legacy account then you will have to purchase heros. I took the average silver coins per game earned by doing:
First of the day bonus: 4 coins
3 victories: 18 coins
3 losses: 12 coins
Consecutive games: 10 coins average
Queing with 2 friends all 6 games: 12 coins
2 bloodlusts: 4 coins
That is 60 coins per day over 6 games. 10 silver coins per game on average is reasonable. If a new player entered Heroes of Newerth, the time it would take them to become competitive depends on whether or not they pay the Iron Price or not. The Iron price would be 4135 games at 10 coins per game average. Assuming a 35 minute game on average, that is 2409 hours to get on an EVEN playing field with legacy account holders. If they neglect to pay the Iron price, it would cost them either $345, $276 or $240 depending on which packages they buy. In competitive games, the only thing which differentiates two players should be skill, rather than someone lacking features of the game. In Unreal Tournament, the only differences between players is skill, whereas if Unreal Tournament operated like HoN now, I might die to someone not because they are more skilled than me, but because they would have access to weapons I wouldn't have.
Why should I throw a ****ing bone to S2 when this game has **** on everything it had going for it? Convince me why a game that lacks basic features such as LAN, takes a huge time or cash investment to be on an even level and developers who thought Silhouette, Nomad and Artillery would be good additions to the game. Your shitty donation raffle will mean nothing, S2 constantly gouge their customers on skin prices, what makes you think they are short on money?
@Dae
This isnt a fund for S2, this is a fund to go towards the IG gaming events, which people have the option to just watch for free on Honcast. I personally have watched alot on honcast and so i felt like my donation of $5/£3 was worthwhile if others did so and possibly generated some more interest into the game, meaning more free entertainment for me. As regards to your numbers stated about buying the heroes, your correct with the silver but your values for buying all the heroes are completely wrong. Several of my friends at uni have played this game with me (i have legacy) and i know at least one has bought all the heroes during a %50 sale. He has also bought alt avatars, and im pretty confident he hasnt spent over $80. Since he bought the majority of the heroes, he just saves silver for the new ones as they come out. I agree with one thing about the f2p accounts not being viable for competition, and thats because you have to get game passes/tokens in order to do different game modes. I cant actually form a team with my friends unless they constantly feed their silver into buying the tokens and passes, which is just stupid. Banning pick should be free to stimulate some competitive involvement from those with f2p imo.
It isn't? Someone needs to tell the world this because people have been paying out the ass to see their favorite sports teams. I'm not sure if you really understand how much money competitive scenes generate. B/c they generate a lot. And they generate even more in player interest. Let me put it this way: Soccer (futbol around the world) wouldn't be played as much if it wasn't broadcasted worldwide or covered as much. Same goes for eSports.
So because a bunch of other people don't get payed... that's a reason NO ONE should be payed? Want to explain that logic a bit further b/c there seems to be some fundamental logic I'm not getting here apparently.Bark all you want, millions and millions of people all around the world do this all the time, spending billions of $, time, dedication, commitment, loyalty, devotion and hard work in activities which will never amount to any of them getting paid to do it. Just for the fun of the activity, this has to be recognized as a fact even within the gaming community.
Sure seems that waySecondly, It's not my lack of "understanding" how the competitive scene works which is the problem.
So you're saying all of the competitive eSport companies and teams need to start listening to you? Someone who doesn't have any experience? B/c why? I'm guessing you have some business prowess and proof of your claims beyond your philosophical beliefs which is all that you have provided here.It's the competitive scenes' lack of basic concepts of reality (as is evident from your post) lack of basic economical understanding, lack of proper organizational structures and understanding as to why this is imperative in order to attract sponsors and funding and a lack of sustainable businessmodels.
Actually I pretty much agree with that except with the S2 part. S2 shouldn't have to lay a hand on the competitive scene, but with how poorly they've managed the game itself, they've scared off most of the big sponsors and companies from touching it. 'The scene' as you're calling it doesn't even want itself. The proof of that is in the number of teams leaving and number of community projects going on. That's not my opinion, that's fact. Compare this game with any other multiplayer-competitive based game and you're going to find more tournaments, more teams, and a larger amount of sponsors.Your argument boils down to the usual tripe about how it's up to someone else (probably s2), somewhere else to put in effort and money to keep the scene going when in reality its up to the scene itself to find viable and sustainable businessmodels and organizational structures in order to keep itself going.
I think you may have the comprehension of a 5th grader b/c you can't even understand what I typedThere will always be new games and new scenes and gamedevelopers know this, which makes it a "high risk/high cost"-strategy to invest in the competitive scene since they really have no other way to compete (since its impossible to be motivated to compete without getting paid to do it according to you) with other developers other than a prizemoney war which results in them losing parts of their profits.
What I did type was that it doesn't keep people motivated and interested. People aren't going to dedicate themselves b/c a game is fun. I'm not saying they won't play or spend the time, but they aren't going to make the necessary schedule choices to make themselves readily available. How do I know this? Because I've organized and participated in more TF2 events than HoN has had tournaments. The fact being is that money is a great goal and motivator for players. Otherwise when someone has something else they rather do like hang out with friends/family/girlfriend/boyfriend, see a movie, go on vacation, or whatever, then what's to stop them?
I really think you need to try to be a pro player to even comprehend or understand how unGodly wrong you are here. You think pro players are just money hungry or entitled.Profits which they need in order to expand, balance and produce new games and content but instead will have to be used to pander to some 2-3% of the total community and will likely just become a very lucrative market for journeyman "pro" gamers. It's even possible that it makes them unable to pay their running costs such as wages and office rent which ultimately would lead to them having to shut down. But I guess in the mind of a "pro"gamer this is not a problem since it's not the gameplay and fun thats important, there is always another game, another scene, where ezmoney can be made.
And what about that is wrong exactly? You're right companies are looking for profit. Apparently they can make a profit off other games and not HoN.In the end companies respond to the prospect of profits and good businessplans, they are not wellfare agencies. Welcome to reality, now deal with it.
Oh and a pro tip for you too
Don't assume you know a type of player when you have no experience beyond just watching. You don't understand the economics or power behind a competitive scene. I doubt you've ever been in a professionally broadcasted game. In which case that just goes to proving my point. If you don't understand or doesn't possess the philosophical ideal behind it then stop arguing. No one's listening to you. I know people listen to me b/c in other games the stuff I preach WORKS.
maybe there should start being entry fees?
everything goes into the pot 7/2/1 split
appreciate the organization msmia, will donate soon
Donated 13.37)
be awkward if they get around 200k in donations or more? ;P
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