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Are melee heroes at a serious disadvantage to range heroes solo middle and if so how can you over come it?
I haven't noticed it until recently when I reached 1750 mmr range, that I lose almost every game I choose to melee mid and these losses are my fault because I get dominated. I've never felt as outclassed when I was melee vs range at lower mmr levels and I do just fine as a ranged solo at the same level I am now. However I know that there is something I am missing because I see other players dominating mid with gladiator, pebbles, and monkey king (to name a few). I would like to here your thoughts on the match up and any strategies you have to gaining lane control or just overpowering the other solo in a melee vs ranged middle situation.
Right click the enemy hero to pull the creeps closer to you for safer last hitting. If you go hatchet become very good at getting CKs with it. Some melee heroes have good creep clearing abilities, so it is possible to get rune control with a bottle, although it might be tough against certain ranged heroes. You should stop worrying about 'needing to dominate mid' and focus more on just going even with them and getting as many creeps as you can. If you need to, go back to base or buy more regen. The worst thing you can do is stubbornly stay in lane when you're getting outharassed. You'll just die and that is how you'll lose mid. If you are playing someone like Gauntlet/Devo/Pebbles, keep your eye out for when they make a mistake and capitalize on it by using your strong abilities and either getting a kill or forcing them out of lane/exp range. If they don't make mistakes, just play a bit passive and try to pull the lane back and get CKs and experience, but a lot of players do make mistakes. Also, remember that the laning phase is only a small (although important) part of the whole game and even if you come out of it at a slight disadvantage, you can still come back to win with smart play.
Harass them so much that they are in constant fear of dying. Glad does this easily with his passive and pebbles if u buy a mana ring u can spam ur stun.
Thank you Raynd. I had forgotten the fact that you can drag the creeps closer to you like that. Also I had always assumed it was important to stay in lane for xp no matter how risky it was but you're right, as long as you don't die you can come back.
Remember that denies are a far bigger deal for the opponent than they are for you - Melee heroes still get most of the experience from an opponent deny, meaning simply hanging around the lane and getting safe lasthits + guaranteed hatchet hits is completely fine. If you can manage a good creep block and static the lane on your ramp it is even better.
Otherwise you just need to work with what you have. If you have a melee hero with strong self-regen (Salforis, Zephyr) you can take slightly more harass and go for riskier lasthits. If you have strong early creep-clearing (Pebbles, MK, Glad, Electrician) you can destroy a creep wave to get rune control or burst farm as necessary. If you have heroes with strong closing abilities or harass (Glad, Electrician, Tundra) play ultra aggressive with the extra defence from your shield and try and get them to pull back for better farm. It all depends on the matchup.
Every matchup is different. You can't overgeneralise like that. Some heroes dominate other heroes and it really depends on the specific matchup. Often times the perks of being melee (hatchet, less affected by denies, more damage) outshine the range advantage, especially when you play heroes like monkey king, zephyr, pebbles, dampeer. However some ranged heroes are really hard to lane against as melee, like vindicator, torturer, silhouette. But ss can have 0 lasthits until later levels vs a good dampeer player and there's nothing he can do about it, to a point of frustration. But just today i played vindicator vs a zephyr and the poor lad got an 8-minute lifetube, while I was sitting at bottle, steamboots, grave locket, power supply.
And how do you propose melee to out harass range. Glad passive is predictable and easily dodged against a good player. And how are you gonna get the farm for mana ring, when you're being harassed. Against a lower skill opponent, yes, but equal skill wise, melee won't come out on top, UNLESS SIDE LANE GANK MID (Hint, hint).Originally Posted by Rayp1st
This sort of confuses me. How on earth are you gonna "dodge" an instant AOE that literally hits you anywhere between the ramps, 200 units outside of max attack range of any range hero? A gladiator who knows what he is doing is not gonna "miss" a harrass.
Generalising and saying melee is weak against range is just false. Heroes like Tundra/Electrician/MK will completely trash even competent players in several melee vs. range matchups. I would go as far as saying that the majority of melee has an enormous advantage against several range heroes with low base damage or bad projectiles, like Soulstealer or Bubbles.
I did not even know that melee's got more xp from creeps that are denied than ranged hero. I would start to panic if the other hero was getting too many denies and that panic would turn into more aggression than was good for me. Thank you for the tips.
I feel melee heroes have the advantage. Just buy shield and some regen. Keep pulling creeps to you and you can exchange lasthit for couple of autoattacks. But dont just randomly pick any melee hero, he has to have some sort of killing mechanism imo. I usually play devourer, gauntlet or dampeer they all have awesome ways to score a kill early. When you get your bottle you can clear creeps easily with any of those heroes and grab those good runes.
Sometimes, in a particularly difficult match up, it's more beneficial to let them take runes unchallenged so long as you call your misses. You just need to play safe, but keep a close watch for that opening. Often times, if you are getting outharassed by a lane opponent, their cockiness will replace their strategy and they will walk into certain death. This is not a guarentee, though.
One other rule to keep in mind is "if you can't win mid, win the sidelanes." Gank EVERY chance you can if mid is beating, so at least you know one lane will win. If you KNOW your lane is lost on a sidelane and you keep dying there, you don't buy TPs and just keep going back - you try to gank mid or the other lane, right? Do the same in mid.
Another tip specifically for what you mentioned - pebs vs valk, don't blow your mana unless you can kill her. She can leap and pebs has trouble killing a valk from full hp early. Just get into a whacking contest. If she leaps, you win cause it's now on cd and you can kill her if she comes close. If she doesn't leap, then you win cause she'll get low enough to get dead from your combo. If you balls up on her and combo right away, she leaps and you have no mana. Often the threat of (see also: "mind-f*** of") a big nuke is better harass than using the big nuke. Save it until they least expect it.
If you have retards that prioritize harassing over getting cs/cds at any cost, they'll eventually overextend & die or will get their bottle/boots later than you, aka you'll have better runecontrol, which will results in a kill/180deg turnaround on the lanecontrol.
Obviously it's different for some matchups, like when you are up vs an arachna in mid who can just infinitely orbharass you.
You don't need hatchet mid if you're melee really, you'll out lasthit ranged heroes easily without it. Grab buckler and tons of totems + regen and you're just fine.
Oh and you don't get more exp from denyes if you're melee... afaik. BUT melee denyes are better than ranged denyes because they deny more exp.
^ No they don't, denies with any kind of hero will yield 1/3 of the original experience for ranged heroes in exp range and 2/3 of the original experience for melee heroes in range.
Thank you for the info that I shouldn't buy hatchet when going mid as a mele. That's so so right! With just shield some minor totems and like 2 sets of runes of blight I should be able to do just fine! I was so used to going with hatchet, but when I think about it now it's just wrong! I'll try it in my next game
Get creep agro until the creep wave is on your side so the enemy hero misses a bit on last hits as well as being scared of coming too close since once the creeps are on your side of the hill then the enemy hero is open for ganks made by your sidelanes
Get your sidelane Glacius to gank mid, win win win win.
If Sol's Blessing cant fix it, nothing can....
It's all situational, you're 1750, you should know that guides are ****ing terrible. If you follow guides you basically flip a coin and hope what you're doing ingame is a proper answer to what the other team is doing.
I wouldn't follow tips like "You dont need a hatchet ever, you can out-CS a ranged hero" because that's simply not accurate in all situations. It's just not. "You always need a shield!" If you're up against a TB middle and you're getting a shield, mana batter and 1 set of tangos then you're not getting gold-efficient items just because some guy thought it would be a good idea to overgeneralise over 50-60 1v1 matchups(?) middle.
Some small things I can come up from the top of my head that hasn't been said in this thread alredy:
There's the ol' hatchet on tree up to secret shop trick if you're hellbourne, you probably alredy know of this, but if you use a tango / hatchet on a tree on the tree up to the observatory you can get easy health/mana potions.
If you're legion with a hero whom can clear creeps easily you can always stack the yellow camp inbetween waves. If you don't have rune control you can always just guess the rune either top or bottom (depends on situation and if you're hellbourne or legion) and hope for a rune. If you have a jungler or an available support he can always go for the bot/top rune and you can run for the other. There's more little things but I'm sure I dont have to type out a list of obvious **** like prio cs over denies.
All you need to do is try and adjust to the situation at hand and not follow item/skill-builds, the rest is so situational. glhf etc.
Obviously a buckler will help alot.
The SS vs. Dampeer thing is simply not true at all. SS will start getting last hits at level 2 with his nuke and will skill his nuke to level 2 at level 3 and be able to get at least two free last hits a wave safely.
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