flint's huge range is good in theory, but in game with half of heroes having pseudo blink (or huge range disables) is nothing to be proud of ... also having attacks reveal you in the fog does not help, why was this mechanic even introduced into hon (seeing projectiles should be enough)?
his ms is not a problem, but his farming ability is, any other range carry can farm much more faster/recover from early crap
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I think Flint is really good at the moment. If anything buff his base speed/damage, else from that nothing. As others said, games are faster, so all hard-carries don't have much time to actually farm, but I still don't think that turtle/hard-carry based teams are impossible, they are only harder to accomplish.
Also, just because games are over before heroes like can reach their peak doesn't make the hero weak/broken/imbalanced/whatever. It means the game isn't balanced to allow all strategies to play out equally. It's a fault of the environment the hero is put in, not the hero itself.
I'm guessing you're also the kind to not go Soulscream rings because they don't build into anything late game and whatever farm you do get is better put into straight out late-game items?Even if you get a punch dagger or two duck boots and a pretender's crown, you still can't compete against Logger Hatchet Melee heroes or Range heroes with similar items. Of course, your hollow-point shells might be able to get you a few last hits, but you can't predict when your mini-stun will proc. So last-hitting with Flint, early on, is not skill dependent but chance dependent.
Your "reasons" for why isn't picked ("at every time-frame of the game, there is a hero that can perform better than Flint") can be applied to 70% of the hero pool. They aren't unique to alone. Squishy, low damage, no recovery-ability, low mobility. I tried to tell you that these aren't 's WEAKNESSES but what keep him BALANCED. The reason they look like weaknesses is because monstrosities like exist. Your balance gripe is misplaced. I don't need to debunk anything because your premise is flawed.You can certainly not last-hit against a Pebbles or a Deadwood, although you could harass them to a certain degree. And your criticism that "Flint can't harass" issue is shitty for thread opening is completely grudge-based. I have mentioned in the very first paragraph of the opening post that I am attempting to justify why Flint is not picked. "Flint can't harass" is one of the many reasons I listed and, therefore, should not be taken by itself for thread opening consideration.
Basically the idea was to show his weakness in all points of the game, which is true. Currently, at every time-frame of the game, there is a hero that can perform better than Flint. He does not have an seeming edge anywhere, hence the outclassed claim.
With that said, LEARN TO DEBUNK PROPERLY. What gave you the implication that out of the 810 words I wrote, those 3 words were the entire point of the argument. Where in the world has me or the moderator said that Flint can't harass is the ONLY reason why this thread was opened. I was simply highlighting his weaknesses and my intention to do so have been mentioned in the second line.
(I don't hold a grudge against you; I don't know you or anything about you. I'm just taking your arguments at face-value and I think they're stupid. Look past YOUR thinking that I hold a grudge and maybe you'll see what I mean.)
None of those heroes are hard carries, no. MQ/Gladiator/Puppet all carry by having more items than the other carry. Equally farmed, and having equally farmed and proper lineups, they will NOT be able to carry against someone like . Maliken is the exception simply because his ultimate gives him AoE presence, but even then, you wouldn't clump up against him if you have a brain, and he can only focus one hero at a time because autoattacks only hit one hero at a time. Ergo, hard carries (who are carries because their autoattacks scale into late game) are primarily single target. Make sense?Moon Queen, Maliken, Puppet Master and Gladiator are not considered hard-carries anymore by your definition. All of said heroes scale incredibly well with damage and do almost all of their damage through auto-attacks, but heh a late game Gladiator one-shotting the opponent's entire-team with one whip is a semi-carry. A Maliken who gets 100% to 30% cleave is also a semi-carry, cuz AOE spells. NP
(And one shotting enemy teams? Lol. If that's true, why don't we see picked? Sounds pretty strong to me? Stop watching Youtube clips of pubby s. Those gimmicks don't work against half a brain.)
My problem is that you're not arguing about "Why does have a charge for positioning when he has a AoE attacked and non-channeling tempest ultimate?", but you're saying "Why doesn't do 50-60 base damage and have 900 HP at level 6 that will help him carry faster?". You're just adding to the powercreep instead of fixing the game in general.Yes, I agree that is perhaps the largest part of the problem (but we can not consider this to be the only factor, otherwise we will have Omitted Variable Bias). With that said, let me quote my second line of the opening post to you: "I will try (m)y best to list all of the hero's short-comings and explain why having the longest range is not enough in this new meta".
PS: I agree with the other things you said, but please learn to leave your biases behind when posting in the balance forum.
Edit: On a sidenote, my anger is probably misdirected. This from PrestonLee sums up pretty much what I want to say:
Last edited by painkiller`; 04-09-2012 at 08:56 AM.
Only difference is that MQ and PM actually are hard-carries. But yes, FB is MQ's hard counter, that's why you don't pick her against him. And no, equally farmed totally doesn't make sense. FB with only SH or GB is a joke, while Gladiator with AS or MQ with SH would be already really scary.
op is right.
buff dis bad man nao.
Painkiller`: Dude, if you look at all the other threads. This has been brought up like a thousand times now. "Y is not weak, all the Xs are too strong". While such a statement is true, there is no way in hell S2 would take charge out of Kraken, or Amun RA, or half-the-strength of Zephyr's gust. Why I say this? Because Valkyrie has been sitting on the OP semi-carry throne for almost forever now and just because she was like that in DOTA, they must not bring her down to balance-villa.
So what do they do? They try to bring the game up to her level, and their efforts result in complete chaos.
Back when Frostwolf Skull was OP and the go to Attack Mod in every situation Flint was by far the best Skull carrier in the game. After taking quite a few hits Skull put Ranged carries back in line. After the skull nerf is when Flint dropped down to standard Hard Cary status. He doesn't fit the current tanky meta well because he lacks a kiting/avoidance mechanism. He dishes out good right click DPS, and flare is an awesome skill early game, but with Frostburn and Skull no longer being the faceroll build it was Flint's power level took a hit as well.
In the current meta of Tanky DPS and push flint just doesn't do as well compared to heroes that spread their damage out, compared to the trilane meta where he could feed off of squishy supports and farm mostly undisturbed to get god-mode untouchable Frostwolf/Geos combo.
I personally think he's fine as is now, possibly a bit to much INT growth, but his skill are crazy inefficient, but still surprisingly spammable.
Also, S2 wants a shorter game. Generally speaking, 50 minute farmfests are boring and are part of what make this style of game prohibitive from newer/more casual players. The casual gamer market is far larger than the more hardcore market. You want a good example? look at the Wii. Sold better than either the Xbox360 or the PS3 even though both the Xbox and the PS3 were more powerful and the PS3 had a larger base following.
Anyway on topic FB is still one of the stronger hard carries in game. This game does not support hard-carries though so all of this class of hero will feel underpowered compared to the rest of the hero pool.
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Completely disagree with this thread. Flint is one of my most played, and he is in a VERY good spot. The trouble with him, however, is that noobs play him the way they would play any other carry with escapes and feed mercilessly. Your thesis tends to be 'He's too slow and too weak with no escapes to be viable', and that just instantly sends a message that you don't understand Flint's strengths.
1) YOU HAVE 810 RANGE, USE IT! If I had a nickel for every flint who thought he could run into the center of a team fight like some farmed TDL and kill everyone, I could probably buy another account. You're slow with no escapes for a REASON, because you have amazing range and damage from afar. Stay the **** back and dps.
2) You don't need high starting damage. After you buy + agi items (you are, right?), you should have around 44 low end. With a near perfect attack animation (hit point + projectile speed), last hitting shouldn't be nearly as difficult as you are making it out to be. ALSO, you need to play AGRESSIVE against melee heroes and pretty much ANY hero with a lower projectile range (mq, DR, hag, etc). You can literally harass one of these heroes out of lane in the first minute if you just focus on harassing and play up slightly. Your hollow point shells + auto attacks is absolutely devastating to any of these heroes who are susceptible to harass, and one of the biggest mistakes I see these flints make when I play a pebbles or DR is that they NEVER harass.
3) HIGH NUKING/PUSHING/GANKING - at level 6, you arguably deal the most amount of carry damage in the game. In fact, one flare + ult usually kills every support and agi carry in the game barring any sort of bracers/str treads/mystics. Moreover, you are virtually GUARANTEED tower kills from your nuke. You should have amazing early game GPM through this. Moreover, Flint is an AWESOME ganker, with an aoe slow and again, really good finishing ability. Don't sit mid and farm all game, that's not your role. You must be smart as to when to farm and when it's better to gank a lane and push the outer towers.
4) LOCKDOWN/HARD CARRY - Easily the best hard carry with innate lock down capabilities and great steroids. While DM/Rampage have single target disables, they aren't spammable. Flint, however, has a nearly 1/2 chance to proc a .2s ministun on every auto attack coupled with higher damage. Anyone whose ever played a melee hero against flint knows how god damn annoying it is to try and kill a flint (or anyone for that matter) when he's just auto attacking you. However, this ties back into my first point, where you need to use your RANGE to your advantage and just turret with your hollow point shells. Couple that with a Savage and the enemy looks like they are playing on dialup with how much stutter they go through with constant mini stuns. So very, very effective.
The ONLY thing I think flint should have buffed is his ult giving XP. It was like this in DOTA, but for whatever reason they don't have it in HON (did they at some point and they nerf it? I forget). Anyway, given how important his ult is for getting kills virtually all game, I think it's very important to incorporate the XP after ult kills since I do tend to find myself falling behind on levels mid game due to the handful of kills I get from ult.
Last edited by salokin; 04-09-2012 at 02:19 PM.
Im sure most of us here is talking about the comp scene not pub games.
Ok so Flint is not OP he is perfectly balanced.
QQ about his damage all you want and learn to last hit, his damage is low 'cause of his range it would be pretty retarded for him to have a 50-60 damage early on.
Also keep in mind that he is a hard carry, he is not supposed to do anything early game except farm and pick up kills.
Q/R combo is pretty strong if you go mid against a squishy hero, but i wouldn't recommend him going mid for guys like you who QQ just 'cause they don't know how to last hit with a Flint.
PS: And scaling? What imba-scaling numbers are we talking here? His max base damage at level 25 is a mere 131. You could add [50 + (2 / 5)] to it, which makes it 151.
Compare this to Arachna's 189.44 or MQ's 179.01 or Maliken's 174 or SS's 178. Hope that helps!
How is that a design flaw? Are you saying you want flint, a hard carry to be able to farm well since the beginning? I personally think he's working as intended and pretty closed to balanced.
Painkiller, Trust in the Force and whatnot.
This hero is fine and people will always say otherwise. Just looking at FurryTunas post, let me counter his points.
570 range is still quite good, and in no means does it make him have a weakness. Heroes with 500 range or less do suffer, but 570 isn't even an extra auto-attack from a 600 range hero. Flint also has horrible damage due to his amazing attack animation. While it has huge wind up, the fact that the bullet travels near instantly means that a good Flint will be able to get lasthits by being more accurate. If he is getting outdone by a Deadwood, he still has Flare and Hollowpoint to abuse on Deadwood and kick him out of lane. Then again, it isn't perfect but considering he is a carry it shouldn't be. For the farm reliably, he does? You do know that being in lane against a Flint at level 6-7 means will take 650 damage repeatedly and few heroes can handle that. He wins his lane at that point.
The scaling itself? It is the huge range with how disruptive Hollowpoint can be. It is the closest thing we have to Perma-Bash in this game and it is at a stupid range. Mini-stuns to screw with movement, and biggest of all it screws with attack animations of enemy heroes. His scaling is the range and Hollowpoint. If he hit like MQ or Arachna, well it would be GG.
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Even if I agree to what you are saying, although I think carries like Chronos, MQ, Puppet, Maliken, Arachna, Magebane etc have insane farming potential early-on, the fact still remains that Flint is completely outshined at the moment. The game simply does not last long enough for him to be dishing out mad-damages and even then he is highly susceptible of being taken out.
The risk-reward factor simply does not swing in his favor. Perhaps if you have a Jeraziah on your team, I could see how he could work, but then you could still pick heroes that will outperform him in that situation.
If games last enough for mb to shine, they certain last enough for flint
Funny thing about Flint is that even if he is at his maximum range, there will always be someone with blink or pseudo-blink to come and play with him. In example MK can just come and instagib him with his "balanced" Vaultslam combo. Another problem I have with him is that even if he is his maximum range just about anyone can outrun him because he has no real speed to chase anyone. Flint is almost like SW in this regard, he can do almost nothing at early game but can become a beast if let farmed.
Umm It wont last long 'cause people cc just cause they have a 10/30 team k/d score, also for farming you can use Flare.The game simply does not last long enough for him to be dishing out mad-damages and even then he is highly susceptible of being taken out.
Stop being annoying how he's weak or how he is op he is perfectly balanced.
Get /?In example MK can just come and instagib him with his "balanced" Vaultslam combo. Another problem I have with him is that even if he is his maximum range just about anyone can outrun him because he has no real speed to chase anyone.
Being targeted by huge magic damage dealers?
Somebody still escaping from you? /
Lack of early game farm?
C'mon there are so many combinations stop trolling please ... all you need to do is think while playing and it's gg ...
The only problem I find playing all hard carries is that your team (in the <1600 bracket) always cc's and never let's the carries shine, not to mention blame you for being useless/only steal and how you farm all game. But isn't that the role of a hard carry? To farm and take kills so he can rape effectively ?
But that's my opinion i guess..
Last edited by Lnatic; 04-10-2012 at 05:20 AM.
The second sentence of your amazingly well thought out 810-word post shows you to be nothing more than a proponent of power-creep and the exact reason why balance in this game is so shot right now.
1) longest range hero in the game is the slowest. coincidence?
2) hard-carry is squishy. buff his survivability, now we have another tanky carry to ruin balance with!
3) best attack anim, low early game damage. by definition as a hard carry he scales with items, buffing his natural damage will unbalance him. of course he can't last-hit against a melee hero with a hatchet, learn lane control and try again.
4) tanky heroes don't take a lot of aa-harass? buff dmg plz
5) squishy hero is very easy to take out if opponents play correctly? how about your team plays correctly and protects your squishy ass. (hon is a 5v5 team game btw)
6) hardcarries need utility!
7) delicious anecdote, dessert now?
8) cherrypicking 3 heroes who have POTENTIALLY strong ultimates isn't helping your case.
9) meta is against you. your point?