Flint Beastwood [2.5.18]

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

Lnatic stop being a troll, I have mentioned several times and in my initial post that I was attempting to highlight all the possible reasons why he has diminished from the competitive scene. OR rarely picked in DOTA since his inception.

As for FB mid v FA mid, you really are dumb. FA will **** on FB any day (unless of course, you don't know how to land crippling volleys).

Your argument that FB base damage is there for a reason is perhaps the most retarded thing one could ever say. It's like saying Gemini was perfectly balanced before or Amun-RA or Zephyr or Tremble because their skills and numbers on those skills were there for a reason.

Furthermore, agreeing to nerf flare and then saying FB skills and numbers are fine as they are for a reason is both contradictory and shows your intellectual level.

Flint has low base damage, he can't last hit AT EARLIER LEVELS against most ranged and melee carries. That can be considered one reason why he is not picked. Does that mean S2 should buff his early base damage, nerf his opponent's base damage or do nothing; is up to them. But if you ever studied statistics, you would know that when you are trying to explain something it is best to consider all variables into play in order to avoid Omitted Variable Bias. Of course, you can test for their significance after (going in further detail of Stat101 is irrelevant).

[Antimodus]

IIRC when Flint was introduced they gave him buffed base damage (like maybe 5 or 10 higher than what he had in dota - I don't remember). Because of his sick animation, he'd out-ck anything not involving a melee hatchet hero. Then it got nerfed, and here we are.

Flint is a hard carry, if he's able to go to a lane and get all the ck's against most of the pool without even having a support by him, then something is ****ed up balance wise. Silhouette and PM passives / base damage also took nerfs for similar reasons. It's retarded when hard carries can outharass supports at level 2.

[[NU]Tomate]

I disagree with OP as far as why Flint isn't picked. Was his slow overnerfed? Maybe but the main issue of flint is that games are much more fast face with tones of bursting heroes blasting enemies in 2 to 3 spells which are mostly reliable from minute 15 to 30. It is during this moment that flint cannot compete. Most teams run carry less line-ups counting on heroes such as Kraken, Chutlu, Hag and Valk to take them into the late game. All of these heroes are much more potent in team fights than Flint early on.

Flint virtually still becomes the hardest carry in the game on the very late game with equal farm. The issue is that you never get to this point anymore without having flint's team being at a massive disavantage due to his little effectiveness during the first few teamfights.

If Flint's early game is to be improved, it will need to rebalance his late game which can be completely broken once he reach that 20k worth of items (FWS, GEO, Boots, Savage Mace kind of build, maybe add in a shrunken head).

I say leave him be, if late game line ups show up again at some point in the metagame, Flint will start to appear again. He cannot compete with FA on the early / mid game but he sure can take over her in the late game.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

I disagree with OP as far as why Flint isn't picked. Was his slow overnerfed? Maybe but the main issue of flint is that games are much more fast face with tones of bursting heroes blasting enemies in 2 to 3 spells which are mostly reliable from minute 15 to 30. It is during this moment that flint cannot compete. Most teams run carry less line-ups counting on heroes such as Kraken, Chutlu, Hag and Valk to take them into the late game. All of these heroes are much more potent in team fights than Flint early on.

Flint virtually still becomes the hardest carry in the game on the very late game with equal farm. The issue is that you never get to this point anymore without having flint's team being at a massive disavantage due to his little effectiveness during the first few teamfights.

If Flint's early game is to be improved, it will need to rebalance his late game which can be completely broken once he reach that 20k worth of items (FWS, GEO, Boots, Savage Mace kind of build, maybe add in a shrunken head).

I say leave him be, if late game line ups show up again at some point in the metagame, Flint will start to appear again. He cannot compete with FA on the early / mid game but he sure can take over her in the late game.

Well, DOGKaiser, said in a podcast (like 3+ months ago) that he was vary of hard-carries being overshadowed because the average game doesn't really extend too much. He said back then that he will adjust the power-level of Flint and SW and Chronos etc accordingly to the average length of the competitive game, he just needed more information.

Unfortunately, he has like a lot more than 30 observations (or 50 observations) and can apply Central Limit Theorem to the sample and run his statistics, but I don't think he knows his statistics. So we will never know, when he actually does get a clue as to how long the average length of the games are, and when these hard-carries will be adjusted.

[CrimsonAdder]

I really don't understand where this guy got the idea that Flint has difficulty last-hitting. Ever leveled hollowpoint bullets at lvl 1? Every other attack will do 60+ damage and hit almost instantaneously. Get a ring of the teacher asap after... Good luck losing against a reasonable lane opposition.

[Xinlitik]

In the current meta that really takes the emphasis off late game, would it not be reasonable to buff his early/mid while nerfing his late? His early game is definitely needed as a counterbalance because he is a total beast late game, but that point is kind of irrelevant. Perhaps he could gain some survivability and attack damage in exchange for things like a CD on mini stun procs or a scaling damage on his range (ie 100% dmg at 600 range, 90% at 700, 80% at 800).

[[NU]Tomate]

Xinlitik, if we buff his early game in exchange for the late game, we just reduce possible strategies for future metagame.

Having every hero fitting the current metagame is a way to ensure that the metagame will never evolve. Flint is a hard late game carry that becomes virtually unstoppable on the super late game. There isn't much more scary than a 25k gold farmed flint running around with: Treads, Geo, FWS, Savage, XX, XX (XX being either shrunken or rift or wingbow or even genjuro). A such Flint will out carry any FA, Valk and what not with the same farm supposing similar positioning / rest of team farm and coordination.

Moving flint from this very late game carry to a ok all game hero just cuts the opportunity of having another super fun hero around.

[foxmindedguy]

I don't think the problem is so much with Flint. I think the problem lies with Valkyrie and the new FA etc. However, as I am sure, S2 is stubborn to never admit that Valkyrie was an issue in the first place, I think Flint should receive stat adjustments (as promised by DOGKaiser).

[skeloperch]

I don't think the problem is so much with Flint. I think the problem lies with Valkyrie and the new FA etc. However, as I am sure, S2 is stubborn to never admit that Valkyrie was an issue in the first place, I think Flint should receive stat adjustments (as promised by DOGKaiser).

No one wants to admit Valkyrie/PotM is op. Just go talk to anyone in DOTA2 and just about half of them think she's under powered/balanced. It's like no one can land her skill shot or something.


Either way, Flint is fine. I hate him with a burning passion, and don't mind if he stays balanced. He's better than CD is, and CD is mostly balanced as is. Does anyone remember the reign of FWS carries?

[the_guy117]

Flint used to be insane when he first came out. I feel like it was power creep more than anything that destroyed flint.

[LordTroll]

Ok, so we've ended up agreeing that Flint isn't the problem and we should be dealing with the cause.

Would you also agree then that this thread should be closed and new threads created around the heroes responsible for the problem?

Moving on now, nothing further to see here.

3 people agree on something balance related;

close thread, as veredict is obviously reached.

[Brannock]

3 people agree on something balance related;

close thread, as veredict is obviously reached.

Did you have something you wanted to contribute to the thread before it got closed?

[LordTroll]

Did you have something you wanted to contribute to the thread before it got closed?

I just think there are small tweaks that can be made, like some guy suggested, putting hollowpoint bullets on a cooldown after a sure proc, a la Rampage, with a special condition to lower said cooldown, like making each attack lower its cooldown, to give him a bit more reliable utility, while not making him terrible late game due to the CD being reduced by every attack performed, which should work well with the high attack speed he will eventually reach.

As in, I honestly don't think the hero is bad, it's just not as safe as say a Silhouette, who can carry very hard and packs very reliable utility of her own throughout the entire game. A small change like that will make him slightly more strategic. I like it.

Or just buff his Movespeed to like 310 if you think he needs to be more risk-free like a Silhouette or Valkyrie. With either of these buffs (individually applied) he won't become godlike even with nerfs across the board to tanky heroes, just more attractive as a strong hard-carry, like the previously mentioned heroes.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

I just think there are small tweaks that can be made, like some guy suggested, putting hollowpoint bullets on a cooldown after a sure proc, a la Rampage, with a special condition to lower said cooldown, like making each attack lower its cooldown, to give him a bit more reliable utility, while not making him terrible late game due to the CD being reduced by every attack performed, which should work well with the high attack speed he will eventually reach.

You mean this suggestion?

[LordTroll]

Redundant question, is it not?

[_T_o_x_i_c_]

flint need hp nerv or more speed nerf , u cant get close to it u cant run away how the hell is someone supose to take him down , no batt surprise possible

[[NU]Tomate]

Flint cannot compete with the more popular options as far as ranged carries that exist currently. The question is should we all buff the ranged carries to the levels of Valk, FA, Silhouette or should we bring those down?

God knows what will happen in the end, I just have a feeling that S2 cannot, internally, decide what is balanced. They do not have a clear vision of what level of power a hero should have. I feel like Flint is in a good spot as far as strength vs weaknesses balance, the issue is that I don't see the weaknesses in the heroes like Valk, Sil and FA... So, in the end, I always end up picking those instead of Flint.

[skeloperch]

Flint cannot compete with the more popular options as far as ranged carries that exist currently. The question is should we all buff the ranged carries to the levels of Valk, FA, Silhouette or should we bring those down?

God knows what will happen in the end, I just have a feeling that S2 cannot, internally, decide what is balanced. They do not have a clear vision of what level of power a hero should have. I feel like Flint is in a good spot as far as strength vs weaknesses balance, the issue is that I don't see the weaknesses in the heroes like Valk, Sil and FA... So, in the end, I always end up picking those instead of Flint.

The problem is that he CAN compete with them. Flint is subject to not being flavor of the month, not power creep. He's still well above the curve in terms of relative power.

[[f13]`11411181]

Last time we saw a pure flint vs sil game competitively, the flint had 400gpm 30min in and still couldn't compete with a 300gpm sil. Team composition was mostly the same, only that sil could just illusion swap and grapple away, whereas the flint had no recourse for when his team couldn't screen him - and that's the main difference. It's not possible enough currently to screen a flint effectively enough to make him pay off dividends.

[[STLI]Tupimus]

Last time we saw a pure flint vs sil game competitively, the flint had 400gpm 30min in and still couldn't compete with a 300gpm sil. Team composition was mostly the same, only that sil could just illusion swap and grapple away, whereas the flint had no recourse for when his team couldn't screen him - and that's the main difference. It's not possible enough currently to screen a flint effectively enough to make him pay off dividends.

I don't see how this is a fault of Flint as a hero and not Silhouette.