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Too strong
Borderline
Too weak
Agreed.Originally Posted by Antimodus
The people who put the time into understanding the hero (instead of just stacking bracers to win) continued to do perfectly fine with him after the nerfs. The people who couldn't actually play the hero suddenly found themselves unable to stack bracers and then hit w, q, tab, w, q all the way into the enemy fountain, and promptly stopped playing the hero.
There's nothing wrong with that. It's a hero with a high skillcap. Not a lot of people pick him, because not a lot of people can play him effectively, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not that he's a bad hero who must be buffed, it's just that he requires more care in learning to play properly than most. And it's a lot better than going back to a point where any idiot could win the game with him using the same tactic over and over.
The only buff that I'd support is a reduction in the channeling time to merge. The nerf to either wolf being able to initiate a merge has made it very tough to ever merge in a teamfight without some luck, so a reduction on the channeling time would be very helpful. But again, not strictly necessary. People can still play Gemini effectively, as long as they know what they're doing. Buffing him in any other way would, I think, be too much.
And for all the people saying 'it's a bad design! I hate this stupid design! the hero should be deleted because I hate that the passive doesn't synergise with the ult!' -- you're being ridiculous. That's not an argument against his balance, it's a statement about your preferred playstyle and your preferred design aesthetic. Some of us happen to love the hero concept, lack of synergy between passive and ult included. Saying 'his design is so bad that he can never be balanced' is simply not true, it's just couching your preferences in a way that makes it look relevant to a balance discussion. If you don't like it, you're not obligated to play the hero -- there are 90+ other heroes to choose from. Pick one of those instead. But coming to a balance thread and complaining that you personally don't like the design, however you want to phrase it, is ridiculous. Some of us like the design better than the other 90+ heroes, so take your 90+ picks and leave us with the one we like best.
You're right, I guess all those people who have issues with a hero's ultimate having not even the slightest inter-relation to the rest of the hero apart from thematically and borrowed cherrypicked stat linkage are all just speaking from their own preference, and not at all in regard to established precedent.
Here's an analogy for you: Liking **** doesn't make said **** anything more than ****. At the end of the day, it is still just **** irrespective of popularity.
I'm judged by my wild image a lot
And everybody seems to think I have a sinister plot
I do! Be offended by every sentence I jot
I got some militant thoughts, and you ain't killin' 'em off!
So listen...
That's just like, your opinion man.
That is indeed, just your opinion. I would leave it at that, but seeing your obnoxious and overbearing comments throughout this forum almost in every thread makes me sick to the stomach, so I decided to speak up. You belittle almost anyone who has a - even at the slightest - different opinion than you. You come here with your smartass comments, bringing nothing of substance to the discussion (except of the aforementioned "****"). You have a talent of phrasing your opinion strong enough to make it seem important, but in the end it's just an opinion from a person who after more than 600 games doesnt have the grasp to get above the rating everybody started at. Maybe you grow some humility and shamefully refrain from posting again on topics you clearly have no clue about.
And there is even a slight thematical problem with the ultimate, considering how Gemini's passive works:
You get 2 attacks on your main wolf, sort of symbolizing the whole "two heroes" thing. But when you split, any bonus that passive gave you is completely lost while the individual breaths and blinkstrikes still represent the two other skills.
I'm just not sure if that is the way it is because it just wasn't codeable to have Fire and Ice gain on-attack stuff without them actually having the inventories or if there's other reasons.
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Except any experienced Gemini player will tell you thats's exactly what he's good for, pre-nerf or post-nerf.
The main reason most of the threads keep comming up is because people still don't admit the strongest point of this hero IS the double mapcontrol/movement that can be changed to a double-wolf fightning machine that steamrolls people trough mid-game and beyond and then evolves to a decent lategame carry with his normal form - I don't care if he wasn't designed to be like this, fact is no other way of playing the hero is able to net these results. No matter how many times players with 200+ Gemini games tell you this, people will never change their mind about building him like any generic carry, ranking useless skills early on, and then scratching their heads on what to do with his ultimate and wondering why it's so weak and useless because it's not another generic aspd/attack/lifesteal/nuke booster like other carries. Then they will complain why his passive doesen't work with his ultimate witouth even exploring different item/skill builds and mostly important - PLAYSTYLE on that hero. Then they will proceed to complain on the balance forum that the hero is badly designed because you can not farm for 30 minutes and proceed to faceroll teams with qr and autoattacks like other carries. Saying a hero is underpowered/badly designed when you are not able to play it your way does not make it true; it makes as much sense as trying to farm for the entire early/mid game with devourer while maxing your passive and then complaining he's useless at other stages of the game with accumulated carry items. Yeah, for anyone that knows how to play Gemini most topics in this thread so far sound as stupid as this example. And the worse part is that many of them try to look like they have a clue what they're talking about as well.
I'm not sure I follow... That passive is "changed" into 2 completely seperate attacks 1 from each wolf.
Except it's not since you lose any attack modifier and "procc on attack" you build on Gemini - and doing that is the main point of the ability being the way it is (because it might just as well be a 2x crit on a 25% chance otherwise).
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And everyone dribbling over the rest of the thread wasn't just pissing out their opinion behind ill-conceived "reasons"? Shocking!
Oh ****, STAT ARGUMENTS! I haven't heard this one before AT ALL. Dance for me, monkey! Dance! Tell me more about how I shouldn't lane Scout and Night Hound together for 100 games in a row, and how that means I clearly know nothing about balance or design principles! Quick, throw your hat in the air!
Last edited by `11411181; 06-19-2012 at 04:16 PM.
I'm judged by my wild image a lot
And everybody seems to think I have a sinister plot
I do! Be offended by every sentence I jot
I got some militant thoughts, and you ain't killin' 'em off!
So listen...
Thank you. You said far more usefully what I had in mind when I said people who complain about the hero design are being ridiculous. Thank you for illustrating my sentiment in a more constructive way!
Honestly, I'm not sure what thematic issue you're seeing. It sounds like you're saying that the passive isn't represented in ulti form, but that the breath / stun abilities are represented in ulti form because each Ice and Fire get a single-element breath and mini-stun (correct me if I've misinterpreted you!). If this is your point, then I disagree on the passive not being represented. There are two wolves in ulti form, and each gets an attack -- thus two attacks. The passive gives two attacks to the main form because he's really two wolves, and when split he gets two actual attacks: one from Fire and one from Ice.
Seems like you mask your incompetence and lack of arguments with... hmm.. nonsense. Also, the stat argument seems to be bothering you very much, although it's the only tangible evidence of a person having a clue about the game, or not - in your case. There's no other evidence of you knowing anything about balance or design, which I recon, is because you actually don't know anything.
I'll refrain from ever commenting on your posts. Everybody has the right to post, my right is to ignore people who just spit out non-sense, masked under fancy citations, smartass comments and pointless irony. I just felt the need to speak up, because others might think that a person who posts in every other thread might actually have some wisdom to pass on. Unfortunately, you have none.
Last edited by PopCokeSoda; 06-19-2012 at 05:55 PM.
You've got some issues man... I suggest you see a shrink about that.
1337 mmr represent.
In balance, the burden of proof is on you to show your suggestion a) does what you say it will do, b) won't disrupt balance elsewhere, and c) isn't retarded beyond belief. Until you show these three things, the last may be assumed.
Taking donations to buy a sub-account so I can get this one to 1337 as well, to rub in the faces of the new generation of idiots.
Your gold coin donation will buy you endless amusement, as you watch people struggle to put together an argument that doesn't revolve around irrelevant personal statistics to defend their flawed misconceptions!
I'm judged by my wild image a lot
And everybody seems to think I have a sinister plot
I do! Be offended by every sentence I jot
I got some militant thoughts, and you ain't killin' 'em off!
So listen...
Having lower mmr doesen't necessarily mean you're clueless about the game in general, however you're not making yourself look good either with those posts and along with most people that posted in this thread, they are very clueless about the hero itself. So far the only argument I've seen for 'bad design' is 'the hero is bad because his passive doesen't work with his ultimate and his ultimate turns him into a totally different hero'. Until people understand that he is indeed 'two different' heros in different stages of the game with different purposes and actually learn the full potential of his ultimate instead of trying to use it like the average carry steroid, I doubt we'll see anything of interest here. The other issue people don't realize either is that it is possible to build the hero with items that both benefit his passive and his ultimate.
Last edited by zstarkey42; 06-20-2012 at 05:52 AM.
There are several proc items that work very well with both Gemini and F&A such as Frostburn and Brutalizer. The ability is actually what allows Gemini's build to be so flexible around mid game. I fail to see any issue there.
Rule #5
I can't stress this enough: If you can't meet someone's arguments without preconceived notions about their skill level, then either your argument isn't strong enough or you are not capable of conducting a discussion on this forum. I ask you, all of you, step it up or please refrain from posting in this sub-forum.
I will not delete any posts regarding this, as an example for what NOT to do. Any future posts in this thread though that uses ad hominem as its main form of argumenting will be deleted and infracted without further warning.
Last edited by Ekamo; 06-20-2012 at 01:37 AM.
"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.”Forum Moderators are not S2 Games employees. My posts in no way represent the view of S2 Games or any of its staff.
Please use the report post function
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I would agree that small tweaks is all the hero needs, however I found the reduced stats at lv 1 to be too limiting early on. He is still able to do something but it feels like he is not that much of a factor at this point of the game. Having a better early-mid game would indirectly make him more durable and by being more capable of effectively farming neutrals/out-last hitting enemy mid with 1 form while roaming with the other one as well as make him a stronger ganker overal. Giving him an early boost (such as 100% stat scaling in all levels) could both fix his horrendous early game as well as make it 'easier' to pull off recombines due to having more hp early on and an easier time getting gold trough farming/ganking. The dual-channel nerf was what hurt him the most, but it can be avoided with good positioning sometimes and the hardest counter for fire and ice has always been tablets per-nerf or post-nerf anyways (too bad the hero was nerfed before peoplefound how to fight against him though).
Last edited by zstarkey42; 06-20-2012 at 09:14 AM.
This hero is in my eyes a failure at the moment.
Twin fangs has a small cast time which allows instant stunners to prevent this skill to be performed.
His ulti combination is simply too risky to use since it can be interrupted.
The low mobility that he has gotten really negates his main purpose - to be mobile as is even stated in his description.
Too risky hero, not sure what his role is anymore
I think it would be interesting to have Gemini's ult take less time to split, than to combine. It would make him a bit less vulnerable if you were to twin fang->split->spam
It's not a huge buff, just a tiny little change that doesn't really make too much of a difference - but I think that's all he needs. Small tweaks regarding his ult to make things flow better.
aka lonelyking
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