[2.5.18] Gemini

[Antimodus]

the problem is, he is not actually UP. If buffed, any player who studied this hero in detail will start winning games in his bracket almost automatically.

A competent player on a buffed Gemini would take full control of the game almost every time. This is a problem, there are 10 heroes in the game which should have reasonably similar overall impact. The game should not be about an entire team trying to stop one hero from single-handledly destroying them the first 40 minutes of the game. See Tremble before nerfs as well.

A pebbles can do something like that, but he has several considerable limitations. Most of all, he can't be everywhere at once, even with PK. He has long cooldowns, and has no escapes. But pre-nerf Gemini and Tremble, they had almost no limitations.

I'd rather leave these heroes as practically unusable for anyone who hasn't practiced them a lot, then make them strong enough to be usable out of the box, and find that anyone who actually knows how to play them will completely destroy other players at his bracket.

Ophelia is a good example of this. No one complains that Ophelia is never picked. No one also argues she's UP (I don't think that either, except the bullshit with parasite and cthulu). She's just difficult to play properly, which is not really a problem. Grossly overpowered heroes are a much bigger problem IMO.

[[LsE]Hsssh]

But pre-nerf Gemini and Tremble, they had almost no limitations.

I wouldn't really compare them, Gemini is imo much better in this regard since if you catch one wolf he actually pays the price while Tremble doesn't give two shits that you killed Shudders and just summons him again.

[foxmindedguy]

Um... Maybe I am doing it wrong, but if you play Gemini without ever learning the ultimate until you hit level 16, Gemini doesn't seem too lackluster. While we shouldn't compare Tremble and Gemini (as they are different heroes) but still Gemini in its original Fire and Ice Form is restricted from using activatible (or applying orb effects) while Tremble is not when Shudder is around.

I said this in SBT and I will say this here again, I see very little incentive of playing Gemini in Fire and Ice Form apart from the farming or applying additional slows and stuns, you are better off being Gemini for the most part in combat (at least in my eyes).

[[f13]Demonwing]

Um... Maybe I am doing it wrong, but if you play Gemini without ever learning the ultimate until you hit level 16, Gemini doesn't seem too lackluster. While we shouldn't compare Tremble and Gemini (as they are different heroes) but still Gemini in its original Fire and Ice Form is restricted from using activatible (or applying orb effects) while Tremble is not when Shudder is around.

I said this in SBT and I will say this here again, I see very little incentive of playing Gemini in Fire and Ice Form apart from the farming or applying additional slows and stuns, you are better off being Gemini for the most part in combat (at least in my eyes).

I do not really like saying things so bluntly but I'm afraid you are, indeed, doing it wrong.

[foxmindedguy]

I do not really like saying things so bluntly but I'm afraid you are, indeed, doing it wrong.

Yeah I can't micro with anyone except Tundra

[[f13]zstarkey42]

Playing Gemini witouth his ult is about as useful as playing Tempest witouth his ult.

[H0NisSerious]

I still find it hilarious that nobody, even here on the balance forums, considered Gemini to be a powerful hero until me and my friend each stomped 200 games with him, just a month before the entire community did a 180 and he was nerfed into the ground.

[[FATm]DarkLynx]

I'm actually playing Gemini a lot in Mid Wars and I say his ultimate is useless. Of course, mid wars is a very different playstyle since it basically ignores your deaths and counts only your kills. But, mid wars is all about team fights, which is basically mid/late game on a regular match and I've gotta say: His ultimate is complete useless on teamfights. It's too easy to focus one dog down, I'm usually with these items:

[Power Threads] [Cranium Basher] [Savage Mace]
[Shrunken Head] [Abyssal Skull/Satanic] [Daemonic Breastplate]

What you see on a hero with these endgame items is:

- A very strong initiator, I can usually obliterate squishy heroes before they even leave the initial stun [Basically because Basher + SHrunken Head]
- I'll probably die after that, because he's very squishy himself and his maximum 2 attacks per second makes lifesteal (even Satanic) quite useless on a 3x1 situation (Because usually there is 2 carries + 2 casters left, and with Shrunken Head the caster is basically useless so they both count as half)
- He's very good on 1x1 situations.
- He obliterates towers.
- His ultimate is completely useless lategame (you might pick it up to escape or grab a kill here and there, but the casting time usually lets the hero you're chasing juke you or makes you a vulnerable target)

So, I don't usually pick up his ultimate and if I do, I pick up the level 1 for escape purposes (you can't even avoid a slow stun like Andromeda's, because the cast time is so damn big)

What I would like to see change:

I believe Gemini is a initiator like Magebane or Dark Lady but with no escape mecanisms (because his W skill has a long CD, 13 sec if I'm not mistaken while Magebane has a 5 sec or 7).
He deserves a COMPLETE REVAMP of his ultimate, as I said, it's completely useless on a situation you are already farmed. Most heroes have farm skills on their first tiers and get a ultimate with a good burst damage (Magebane, Scout, Wretched Hag, Predator) or a game changing one (Silhouette, Dark Lady, Valkyrie). And Gemini have a ultimate that actually makes him be 2x suscetible for stuns, takes extra damage from AoE skills (like Behes), completely voids all his end-game items purchases, and basically gives enough time to a fleeing hero to escape his chase.

[[f13]zstarkey42]

I still find it hilarious that nobody, even here on the balance forums, considered Gemini to be a powerful hero until me and my friend each stomped 200 games with him, just a month before the entire community did a 180 and he was nerfed into the ground.

I dunno, he was already considered strong the moment people started using stat builds ages ago.

Also, I'm not sure why so many people keep suggesting things or even remakes when they obviously still don't know how to play the hero in the first place:

.
He deserves a COMPLETE REVAMP of his ultimate

I suggest you read previous posts on how to play and build the hero first.
Comparing Midwars with a normal game is nonsense, especially for a hero with very good map control, roaming, farming and ganking, all which are completly irrelevant in that mode, which even has a completely different gold and level progression.

[[f13]Demonwing]

Mid Wars

If you go by the midwars meta, Devo needs to be nerfed into the ground and Ophelia needs an ultra-mega overhaul. :/

[PopCokeSoda]

If you go by the midwars meta, Devo needs to be nerfed into the ground and Ophelia needs an ultra-mega overhaul. :/

I'm actually surprised you took the time to respond to that midwars nonsense.
I mean, seriously? Midwars driven feedback? I've seen a lot of posts from users who have absolutely no clue on the topic of gemini, but that one takes the cake, hands down.

[skeloperch]

Am I the only one who didn't think he was too strong back before his second batch of nerfs? The first set were fine to reign him in. The second were completely uncalled for and trashed the hero. Not too surprised, though. S2 recently dumpstered Tremble, Electrician, and DM too, and only DM was saved from loserville.

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

I dunno, he was already considered strong the moment people started using stat builds ages ago.

Also, I'm not sure why so many people keep suggesting things or even remakes when they obviously still don't know how to play the hero in the first place:



I suggest you read previous posts on how to play and build the hero first.
Comparing Midwars with a normal game is nonsense, especially for a hero with very good map control, roaming, farming and ganking, all which are completly irrelevant in that mode, which even has a completely different gold and level progression.

I have 90% win rate with the hero and think he needs remade, it has nothing to do with strategy. I can play the hero just fine. Again, he's a confuddled mess that happened because Diva was dead set on the artistic theme of fire and ice wolves and threw all other design conventions aside. He tried to make a hero that could easily utilize multiple build choices, but failed. Can we move along now?

[CrimsonAdder]

I did always think Gemini has a very unclear design philosophy behind his creation... There's a reason why item and skill builds on him have been very strange / unpractical since his inception. Mess of a hero if you ask me. Cute general concept, but not functional enough unfortunately. He does have the potential of becoming much more appealing and versatile.

[Lethe]

@ skel: hard to say, the 2nd round of nerfs came like a week after the recombine nerf.

[PrestonLee]

I still find it hilarious that nobody, even here on the balance forums, considered Gemini to be a powerful hero until me and my friend each stomped 200 games with him, just a month before the entire community did a 180 and he was nerfed into the ground.

That's a joke right? As far as I remember Gemini was considered incredibly overpowered from the moment he came out, it's just the huge amount of censoring going on by the forum mods or whoever along with propaganda of him supposedly being 'balanced' to defend the abomination that was Gemini that made it 'seem' like no one considered him to be powerful (the same thing happened when Silhouette came out). The hero was considered monstrously overpowered from day 1 from my eyes, and I'm sure also for many of the other people who actually know what they're talking about.

[FlareForce]

They should revert the stats and give him a movespeed boost while split up to fix him in my opinion. His single-channel recombining was what made him ridiculously overpowered; now you can't just sit in the middle of a fight and despell all slows or dots while healing yourself considerably, now it actually takes skill to move away from potential stuns/silences before you gain a huge benefit.

[Antimodus]

That's a joke right? As far as I remember Gemini was considered incredibly overpowered from the moment he came out, it's just the huge amount of censoring going on by the forum mods or whoever along with propaganda of him supposedly being 'balanced' to defend the abomination that was Gemini that made it 'seem' like no one considered him to be powerful (the same thing happened when Silhouette came out). The hero was considered monstrously overpowered from day 1 from my eyes, and I'm sure also for many of the other people who actually know what they're talking about.

+1
I recognized the hero was incredibly strong on paper, but still gave it the benefit of the doubt at first.
then the "stats build" was discovered, and all doubt was removed.

Single wolf channel on ulti was what made it hilariously broken rather than just a plainly OP hero.

Release Silhouette being broken as **** was obvious as daylight tho.
It was pretty scary to watch people defending it as balanced or even UP (yes, really) in the thread back then. That made me realize just how awful people can be at balancing despite having great skill at the game. Tho I could never tell if it was pubstompers that wanted to continue abusing their pubstomp hero or them being truly that awful at balancing.

[[BDWN]Rykoo]

This is honestly a joke. Gemini was an extremely broken character from the beginning. All you needed was 2 bolstering armbands and you had the nuke of a WS ult 24/7 while also being unkillable like Armadon. The nerfs are perfectly fine and he's still not underpowered. this is honestly a joke especially when people like you say "the whole point of Gemini is to stay as the two little wolf offspring he has that are op as **** and can rome freely across the map however they please and still heal to the health of the wolf with the most health when recombining. Comments and gameplay like that are what make me ****ing sick. grow a pair and dont fight like a b****.

[SirVH]

If you go by the midwars meta, Devo needs to be nerfed into the ground and Ophelia needs an ultra-mega overhaul. :/

That's true, but Mid Wars can provide some feedback, specially when you want to know "where can I go with that hero", try different builds against different setups+builds and etc. It won't tell you that hero X or Z are balanced or not, but it will help you to test things out in "a real life" team fights, out of training mode.