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Too strong
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Too weak
imo gemini went from insanely strong (if played with stats+ulti) to being more or less useless (if played with stats+ ulti).
if played with proc items and without ulti hes more or less balanced. the problem is the fact that youre better off not skilling your ulti..
my suggestion is to make his ulti viable again by giving it minor buffs so you dont have to play him with the proc-itembuild. you cant really play him both ways as the ulti needs stats and the other build needs proc items, and even though hes a good farmed you cant afford to max up both builds at the same time.
His ultimate gives too limited of benefits to get/use it. Since it makes Gemini fairly weak early and liable to get burst down, picking it up later once Gemini has gotten Frostburn and the like seems the right thing to do, right? However, once Gemini goes into ultimate form, he doubles his stat based damage and loses his escape and any item effects outside of movespeed buffs and auras. The loss of his escape is of far less concern late game than his loss of item effects. Gemini dishes out crazy damage with items like nullfire and basher, both of which give nothing aside from stats to his ult. The cons outweigh the pros late game to go in his ult. So when should you go in his ult?
He needs at least a reversion to his stat nerf for his ultimate. By the time it is maxed leveled and most powerful it becomes less powerful than his non-ultimate form.
he sounds good in theory late-game, but the reality is his mobility is simply too subpar, allowing him to be kited with ease. Twin Fangs is pretty unreliable, having a 14 second cd, and likely going to be used to jump in anyway, rather than escape.
It's a very strong passive, but the rest of the hero has difficulty putting it to good use.
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I was thinking her split forms could be re-worked into something like DotA's Panda ultimate. Where for a period of time Gemini can be ITEM INDEPENDENT by having fixed stats and damage. This would allow her ultimate to shine early to mid game but must rely on items for late game. Much like Panda.
Right now her ultimate split form isn't rewarding to use. Her item build is much inflexible also. Players are usually torn between damage heavy items or stat heavy items. Many items that hard carries utilize like savage mace or life steal have no benefits to Fire and Ice, therefore her play style is HIGHLY predictable when split and doesn't change at all from 6-16.
And I agree her passive is interesting, but has 0 synergy with her ultimate. You can argue that it's her play style overall, but there are clearly other ways to optimize her design. She is one of very few unique heroes that S2games has churned out since the EA system was implemented and I believe she must be saved by being re-worked with the over-all concept in tact.
I think Gemini is a little weak after all of the nerfs.
But I definitely don't agree with all the people saying the ultimate is worthless and needs to be reworked. The ultimate is what makes the hero fun to play and unique. It offers great burst damage when combined with the other nukes and is usually enough to kill squishies. I think a lot of the people complaining about the ult just aren't able to get the combo off since it requires good timing/micro. Skipping the ultimate is just as bad as skipping the bear on Wildsoul in my opinion.
I think Gemini does need a little bump back up though. The nerfs went a little too far and have put him a little on the underpowered side. The biggest problem with the ult is the lvl 6 version because you are essentially losing 20% of your life when you split and it is pretty hard to recombine now with the change they made to that mechanic. This leaves you really squishy after you have completed your burst and you can't recombine easily now to heal.
The change I think needs to be made is to either to allow the recombining as it was before but make the health an average of the 2 wolves or change the stat percentages on the ult to something like 90/95/100. Either of these changes would help with being so squishy in the lvl 6-10 range while in your ult.
A little speed boost on the ult would be nice too but not like it was before since it made boots unnecessary. Maybe something like +5%/+7.5%/+10% would work and it would still require Gemini to get boots. This would also make frostburn less of a mandatory item and more of a still nice to have item but not required.
Hes worthless, but id much rather have this hero be worthless than anything close to what he was before
Nullfire + Geometer still make his passive deal sh*tload of damage though. I never use his ult anymore since it's just plain trash unless you level much more faster than most of your enemy.
As someone from above said they should make his ulti similar to pandaren's...
if they do this i may start playing hon again
His stun needs to be targettable between 0 and 700 units. This is the first and most important improvement this hero can have. Nothing is more frustrating than having a target 500 units away from you and being unable to stun her as your stun will miss. This will get Gemini a long way as being a dual nuke (stun + slow) hero with an OK carry potential and a somewhat useless ultimate.
no, that stun is perfectly fine. The spell acts as teleport spell aswell, remaking it your way would make it too strong.Originally Posted by Tomate
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I think the issue is that his hero has too much inherent contradiction. On one hand, his passive is telling you to beef up with on-hit procs. On the other hand, his ultimate is telling you to beef up on stats. His ultimate needs to be changed into something more coherent with his passive (it could be the other way around, but as we've seen, his ultimate is very difficult to balance)
tbh even before the nerf.. gemini was easy to counter during mid game anyway.. early (when the lanning phase still were going on) people seemed to have a problem yes..
I got more than 300 matches with gemini and i know the worst thing that could happen to me. Pr ulti, well that is just insta death (in most cases). A supporter that has stormspirit or a sheep stick could really mess things up for gemini as the wolves gets distant from each other preventing any recombine.. and it is more than enough for the team to be able to focus one wolf. Heroes like gauntlet and tundra could easily counter gemini due to there knock back abilities.
Make his twinfang instant cast instead of this, it's a slight casting phase.
Also his ultimate should give a little movement speed imo.
I wish they would make him easy'er to play when used ultimate..
Its just annoying how you always have to select each one of the fire and ice wolf's
My suggestion: Would be that when selected both fire and ice, when used a spell show, weather its leap or breath. Put in the other spell at the same spot wile being able to see the CD on both fire and ice spells...
For example: Ice leap used. Puts in fire leap and shows Ice leap CD.. And same with breath..
Atleast that would make me pick him more. due to the annoying frustration when picking off heroes and have to click fast to stun 2 times in a row..
Once you get used to microing he is not that difficult to use, save a few cases where you quickly need to move each one individually during a fight.
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that this hero, while still being strong in the hands of a very skilled player, is arguably much less useful than before and doesen't really contribute much to the team in its current state. One of the main problems with him is that as a strong semi-carry he relies from early levels and farm very much, which makes him pretty much a mid-only hero in most situations. However, he has the worst possible early game if you level stats. It's not really news, he has always been like this pre-nerf as well, but now even if you do survive your way till 6 you won't be able to kill anything in his current state witouth external help due to the wolves only having 80% stat scaling at this point plus the fact that you don't have free boots and an extra item slot anymore. Obviously, this wasn't an intended mechanic so it was be fixed with a good reason. However, even after you survive your dreadful laning phase, get boots and a couple stat items it is still very risky to accomplish what this hero was supposed to do. The lack of AGI makes both jungle farming and mid last-hitting very slow and the lack of STR makes roaming much more difficult as one of your wolves can get picked off quickly.
Your ability to 1v1 any gankers/supports you encounter is also crippled since any hero with a stun can potentially shut you down quickly due to the recombine nerf. Then you also need to build other items to compensate for the movespeed nerf (since you can't just use ghost marchers like other melees to get in range to attack with your iltimate). All of these make it much much harder for the hero to accomplish his role: to be a roaming ganker/carry that can take over mid-game when he gets a big advantage in levels and gold. While it's still possible to play him at his best (stat build + items that both increase stats and proc effects for lategame - and let me tell you that VERY FEW people actually do this), his pace is much slower, requires help from your team and is much less useful to accomplish since it's only until levels 11 and beyond that you start becomming a factor in the game. Since Gemini is also not a hard carry, all this effort also becomes useless by the time everyone starts getting farmed up (and no, even with his passive and the best proc items in the game (frostburn, nullfire, savage, brutalizer) he is nothing but a semi carry WITOUTH an ultimate and subpar mobility lategame.
I think the main thing Gemini needs is to become a factor sooner in the game... a hero that requires mid, is extremly weak in mid against any harassers, does not benefit from runes at all and is still not that useful when he hits 6 needs a tweak. His stat scaling needs to at least be brought back to 100% at all levels - note that this won't make him as he used to be before: you still have to build boots and you don't have a free item slot for more stats anymore. Even then he is still unable to recombine when any of the wolves gets stunned, but provided he can actively start ganking and dual farming at 6, this can be remedied by snowballing sooner into the game.
So to sum up:
-Remove the attribute scaling nerf at earlier levels
-Maybe increase his default speed from 300 to 305
Last edited by zstarkey42; 05-24-2012 at 08:57 AM.
Why don't we take a completely different approach to this issue instead.
When i fought against gemini, my main problem is always the fact that, that 3k fire wolf got down to 500 hp and he just recombined into 3k hp gemini, got away and could even split again so you fight 2 more 3k hp wolves.
How about... Buff him back to prenerf status (Except for the magic armor buff, i think you should leave that alone)
But REDUCE the amount of hp you get right when you recombine. If fire is at 23% hp and ice is at 100%, he shouldn't recombine into a 100% gemini but into something like.....
40% hp gemini. now, lets say gemini has 3k hp. This makes his hp atleast 1200-1500. Definietly not anywhere near absurd as 3k hp. And you know how easy it is to get gemini to get way too much hp. I deliberately stated that he shouldn't get his magic armor buff for a reason. There is no need for him to run around with MB magic armor permanently in ult form.
His playstyle is definietly unique and i'm trying to preserve that but for balance purposes. he SHOULD NOT get 100% just because one wolf is next to full hp and your team takes too much of a long time to get 1 3k hp wolf to something like 800 hp.
Last edited by IceHism; 05-25-2012 at 12:25 AM.
His magic armor is about the same as a free vestments and thats only at lv 16. I'm not sure why you would kill the only trace left of his survivability since it only takes 1 of them to get stunned to cancel the process now. 3k wolves was only possible due to you having an extra slot earlier and no need to build boots while still being faster than most heros. Nowdays you will be at most with 2.5-2.6k hp and at that point you will want to switch to your normal form since it does more lategame damage. Even pre-nerf Gemini wasn't that hard to counter: all you needed were tablets/displacement skills to prevent them from being in range to combine.
Last edited by zstarkey42; 05-25-2012 at 05:27 AM.
The pre nerf Gem I remember went mid, got lvl 6, killed my entire team and then sat next to our fountain, killing us as we spawned. We cced at 15, at which point the dude was about..50/0? If that's not hard to counter, I don't know what is.
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haha you come up with the funniest stories, I want to hear more seriously.The pre nerf Gem I remember went mid, got lvl 6, killed my entire team and then sat next to our fountain, killing us as we spawned. We cced at 15, at which point the dude was about..50/0? If that's not hard to counter, I don't know what is.
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