Thread: [2.5.18] Gemini

View Poll Results: Gemini?

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  • Too strong

    4 5.33%
  • Borderline

    24 32.00%
  • Too weak

    47 62.67%
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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Rkey View Post
    Well, if you have to, set the 80%/90%/100% stats gained to a static 100%.
    I can say a lot of things to counter-argument some of the above posts as I have actually played THE **** out of Gemini (i can play a pretty damn mean one and his best build is currently a 4/1/1/3/dump stats build and snowballing mid-game) and I still stand strongly on my opinions, but just to keep it short, he really needs ^quoted to happen again to actually be useful (assuming no rework on ulti). Ulti form at level 1 WAS NEVER the problem, even prepatch, Gemini was balanced at that stage and it wasn't til ulti level 2-3 with the added armor/magic armor and movement speed that he got slightly/completely out of hand at ulti level 2/3 respectively.

    I feel the stat gains on the wolves should be reverted as currently they are just WAY too squishy and either wolf getting focused in fire&ice form is pretty much guaranteed death at ulti level 1. Again the stats weren't ever the problem, it was the bonuses in armor/magic armor AND much more obviously the huge movement speed increase, EVEN WITHOUT boots that made him overpowered, not necessarily the stats (though stats were more of a problem when you could COMPLETELY ignore boots, but that is no longer the case.
    Last edited by PrestonLee; 04-13-2012 at 11:32 PM.
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  2. #82
    His core strengths were not touched. The nerfs only made him a more difficult hero to play.

    The ms "nerf" can easily be turned into a buff as ult form can now reach much higher movement speeds much more quickly (instead of being stuck at 350 during the entire early game). I always got boots relatively early on Gemini anyway pre-nerf.

    Double channel nerf was nasty, yes, but good positioning made it rarely truly necessary for survival in the first place.

    The 80%/90%/100% nerf actually is more significant regarding his mana pool than his health pool. Again, with good positioning and play he is only slightly less durable than pre-nerf. He has never been able to survive a good pebbles/pyro/insertbursthero combo even pre-nerf. I find myself running out of mana mid-gank for that final leap very often, however.

    I do not believe Gemini is convincingly underpowered in his current state. I do not think reverting one of the nerfs would be harmful, however.

    People just dislike the fact that the hero is not a traditional hero role (carry, ganker, initiator, or support) and that he doesn't have auto-synergizing and a painfully obvious and generic item/skill build.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonwing View Post
    People just dislike the fact that the hero is not a traditional hero role (carry, ganker, initiator, or support) and that he doesn't have auto-synergizing and a painfully obvious and generic item/skill build.
    I have to agree with that. Gemini is by far my favourite hero to play simply because he is completly different from most carries and plays a fun role in the mid-game. His nerfs were justified and he is still a useful hero IF the player knows what he's doing (and apparently very few people do). That is why my intention with this thread was to add some minimal buffs to him to make him shine a little more since this hero did eat with 3 consecutive nerfs in a row. Like you said, the movespeed nerf is easily compnsated with items (I personally use plated as boots for extra speed of choice and compensate with lacking STR compared to steamboots with an extra bracer/ring or something). Frostburn is also 100% core now and these 2 items raise his speed back to 422 in whatever form (430 pre-nerf only with wolves at lv 16), and with a good start you can easily build this before 16. The stats nerf, again forces the player to be extra careful in
    a) walking around with the wolves separatedly
    b) farming jungle with a wolf
    c) out last hitting mid with a wolf while the other roams
    d) not mindlessly take all possible punishment while towerdiving anymore

    The thing with the dual-channel nerf is that it forces you to play differently because any hero with a single target stun is about as lethal as any hero before with an aoe stun (and the difference between these 2 is rather large). This essentially takes out some of the 'skill' factor while paying the hero since you can not micro each dog to be separated not to be caught in aoe stuns, or to qiickly tab to the unstunned wolf and recombine. Now if one is stunned you can do nothing about it than hope you can spam R and leap away fast enough.

    What I particulary hate is when I am stunlocked by things like Flint/Pesti/Brutalizer that are nigh impossible to counter and pretty much destroy most hopes of combining. I feel this somewhat hinders the hero a bit and turns his potential down against stun heavy teams. The whole point of this thread was to collect oppinions about this issue specifically.
    Last edited by zstarkey42; 04-14-2012 at 05:09 AM.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    every time I want to post in this thread, a voice in my head keeps telling me 'No, not worth it'. Wonder what that's about.
    I can tell you why, since I've been thinking about it aswell. This forum is here only to keep everything tidy and clean. S2 doesn't use it to get ideas, S2 probably doesn't even bother reading. If there was no such forum, people would cry in general discussion about creating a balance discussion forum. It's only for us peasants to have a means of venting, otherwise, whatever we write here is just trees falling when no one is around to see it.

  5. #85
    S2 actually does read these forums surprisingly enough.

    I forgot to mention one relatively important thing.
    The double channel nerf was reasonable in that, before, it took an unreasonable amount of resources to stop or hinder him for any amount of time in a fight. Being able to circumvent any type of disable so easily was problematic.

    What it also hit, however, was Gemini's 1v1 ability. One of the reasons why he was/is such a good perpetual roamer/camper after level 6 is because he won't just get insta-gibbed by any random ganker that came along the same way. This is the part of the hero the nerf hurt. In teamfights it is only mildly noticeable.

    Take that into consideration when you discuss that particular nerf.

    I have no issues with Gemini as he currently is. I assert that his potential power level was only barely nerfed. He is just more difficult with a higher skillcap now.

  6. #86
    I concur ^, he explained exactly my view on him. ^V^

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by NitroS View Post
    why does this hero have a passive that requires him to stay in normal form and discourages changing forms through his ult, doesnt make sense ultimate is well designed but the passive is just stupid.

    this hero got overnerfed, i dont get kaiser sometimes he takes baby steps on heroes such as torturer then he just does huge drastic nerfs on heroes such as gemini? why didnt he just do 1 nerf at a time instead of 5 in one patch. in a team fight the hero suffers now due to the requirement of both dogs to combine.

    Imagine how a Brutalizer would work with ultimate form if the passive worked on Fire and Ice. Sure Wildsoul can do this too in a way but he has to buy two Brutalizers to make it work.
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by GregerMoek View Post
    Imagine how a Brutalizer would work with ultimate form if the passive worked on Fire and Ice. Sure Wildsoul can do this too in a way but he has to buy two Brutalizers to make it work.
    Uh, what?

    In his single form he has two chances to proc it. Are you saying the separate procs could be annoying?

    I doubt it'd be gamebreakingly bad, but then again -- I don't think it's a buff he needs either.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonwing View Post

    I forgot to mention one relatively important thing.
    The double channel nerf was reasonable in that, before, it took an unreasonable amount of resources to stop or hinder him for any amount of time in a fight. Being able to circumvent any type of disable so easily was problematic.

    What it also hit, however, was Gemini's 1v1 ability. One of the reasons why he was/is such a good perpetual roamer/camper after level 6 is because he won't just get insta-gibbed by any random ganker that came along the same way. This is the part of the hero the nerf hurt. In teamfights it is only mildly noticeable.

    Take that into consideration when you discuss that particular nerf.

    I have no issues with Gemini as he currently is. I assert that his potential power level was only barely nerfed. He is just more difficult with a higher skillcap now.
    I wholeheartedly agree with the 1v1 issue.

    The fact that he can now be "executed" in ult mode by a sequence of single target disables and nukes thrown haphazardly in rapid-fire mode makes a huge difference. It seemed that before the nerf, for many disablers he was more difficult to lock down than even magebane/hag/DR, and he was getting a stupendous level of tankiness from his dirt cheap core on top of that.

    Another thing worth mentioning, is that his ult activation does much more than disjoint. It allows him to negate some of the most deadly dots in the game (non-removable ones like slither ult and VJ curse), and, before the nerf, circumvented single target disables, even superior or physical ones, including ultimates (say hello to Tundra, Devourer, Panda, Arachna, Succubus). It is especially annoying as those ults are specifically designed to shut down carry heroes. That was seriously broken.

    The problem is that there is no middle ground between single channel ult and dual channel ult. Maybe single channel with a longer channel time? doesn't seem right to me. Anyway that's a suggestion so it's OT.

    I believe that Gemini with a single channel ult, is just retarded OP if it's being abused properly. He would have to take obscene nerfs elsewhere to balance out that kind of strength, so perhaps if looking to buff him, it's better to look elsewhere.
    "Proclamation was made, in the King's Name, for all Persons to keep Silence" - House of Lords Journal, Volume 20, 24 June 1717

  10. #90
    @ OP

    YES!!!! Please give him back his old re-combine. I love to play micro-intensive heros, and Gemini is way too fun to be relegated to the garbage bin. Start with that change, and see what happens imo... he might need more tbh though.
    Last edited by Wesu; 04-16-2012 at 10:00 PM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by zstarkey42 View Post
    I think that's the first time in this thread someone points out a flaw in something I've said with reasoning behind. However, you forgot to notice one of those propositions is irrelevant in practice. I'll leave that for you to find out as homework.
    Does anyone know what this fuzz-brain is talking about? I don't think he knows the definition of proposition (since I never made one...). I still don't know what he's talking about if you assume he is talking about my probability calculations...

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by da_fume View Post
    Does anyone know what this fuzz-brain is talking about? I don't think he knows the definition of proposition (since I never made one...). I still don't know what he's talking about if you assume he is talking about my probability
    calculations...
    I think he meant that 43.75% is basically the same as 50% :/ not sure though.
    Regardless your assertions that he is poorly designed and that nobody would pick him were incorrect.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonwing View Post
    Regardless your assertions that he is poorly designed and that nobody would pick him were incorrect.
    I'm gonna be real here, I honestly think that the only reason you don't want a buff on him is because you can play him much better than others can, and buffing him would allow the majority to pick him and do well with him again.

    That's how I felt when fayde was buffed anyway, I was pretty upset when they changed her and threw her stances away and made her accessible to everyone (still pretty upset because my favorite hero that i dedicated my time into learning/mastering degenerated into a pubsmash unrespectful "no skill" pick). It doesn't change that I can still fayde at a much higher level than most players, but yes I'm still pretty upset that even no skill players can do well with her in her current state.

    I'm definitely not disagreeing that a well-played Gemini has some potential in there (I can play a pretty mean Gemini too), but I honestly think he's currently too inaccessible to most players at the moment, and for the most part too risky of a pick to really justify picking over other heroes in most situations, mostly because his early game is too risky to consider as a dependable pick.

    Not saying your opinion is wrong either, just stating out mine. I really feel for balance purposes, what he really needs is that lift on the stats to his early levels on ult to make him viable again (again, it was never his early ult that caused problems in the past, but rather his higher levels of ulti scaling too quickly in usefulness with all the movement speed they were given without boots that made snowball out of control; pre-stats nerf but post-interrupt nerf a level 1 ulti Gemini caught in some cc is still a dead Gemini, even with a stats build).

    Tl;dr - babysteps, the word that after two years of mistakes the balancing SBT still hasn't learned. They SHOULD be constantly making progressive minor tweaks in balance as often as they are pumping out new heroes in order to strive for balance, not secretly 'balancing' heroes for months without any feedback and then randomly come out with monstrosities like the current Drunken Master or Vindicator
    Last edited by PrestonLee; 04-17-2012 at 01:20 PM.
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by PrestonLee View Post
    Tl;dr - babysteps, the word that after two years of mistakes the balancing SBT still hasn't learned. They SHOULD be constantly making progressive minor tweaks in balance as often as they are pumping out new heroes in order to strive for balance, not secretly 'balancing' heroes for months without any feedback and then randomly come out with monstrosities like the current Drunken Master or Vindicator
    Bingo.

    Heavy gemini users (like myself) wouldn't even be mad if he was nerfed incrementally.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by PrestonLee View Post
    I'm gonna be real here, I honestly think that the only reason you don't want a buff on him is because you can play him much better than others can, and buffing him would allow the majority to pick him and do well with him again.



    That's how I felt when fayde was buffed anyway, I was pretty upset when they changed her and threw her stances away and made her accessible to everyone (still pretty upset because my favorite hero that i dedicated my time into learning/mastering degenerated into a pubsmash unrespectful "no skill" pick). It doesn't change that I can still fayde at a much higher level than most players, but yes I'm still pretty upset that even no skill players can do well with her in her current state.

    I'm definitely not disagreeing that a well-played Gemini has some potential in there (I can play a pretty mean Gemini too), but I honestly think he's currently too inaccessible to most players at the moment, and for the most part too risky of a pick to really justify picking over other heroes in most situations, mostly because his early game is too risky to consider as a dependable pick.

    Not saying your opinion is wrong either, just stating out mine. I really feel for balance purposes, what he really needs is that lift on the stats to his early levels on ult to make him viable again (again, it was never his early ult that caused problems in the past, but rather his higher levels of ulti scaling too quickly in usefulness with all the movement speed they were given without boots that made snowball out of control; pre-stats nerf but post-interrupt nerf a level 1 ulti Gemini caught in some cc is still a dead Gemini, even with a stats build).

    Tl;dr - babysteps, the word that after two years of mistakes the balancing SBT still hasn't learned. They SHOULD be constantly making progressive minor tweaks in balance as often as they are pumping out new heroes in order to strive for balance, not secretly 'balancing' heroes for months without any feedback and then randomly come out with monstrosities like the current Drunken Master or Vindicator
    I don't think a hero's balance has very much to do with its difficulty. Ophelia is definitely just as inaccessible as Gemini yet a well-practiced Ophelia player can be an enormous addition to a team. I think you'll agree that Ophelia does not need any buffs just because less than 1% of the HoN population can actually play her decently.


    Regardless, I have no problems with a buff. I would be happy to see a buff to Gemini. I think that, compared to some of the more ridiculous heroes in the pool, a buff would be just fine. I'm talking logically, however, from the community's standpoint.

    The community thought that pre-nerf Gemini was superultramega broken. I am quite sure that a buff to 100% stats at level 1 would make him more or less the same for me as he was pre-nerf (pre-nerf also implying superultra broken). I am sure other players, with the proper amount of practice, could play him similarly well. The question is if you are okay with that. If not, then the hero is fine for now. If you ARE okay with that, then buff away.

    Trust me, when it comes to being selfish and personal, I would LOVE a buff to my favorite hero any day of the week, not vice-versa I wouldn't have written a guide detailing everything I know about the hero if I wanted to hog him all to myself.

    Nerfing incrementally is easy. The problem is the huge and massive nerf made it so any relative sense of balance was lost. Any buffs would be guesswork at this point.

  16. #96
    The hero isn't viable anymore tbh. The team dependency is simply too big.
    If you don't get ganks, you will end up either failing ganks yourself or being ganked yourself easily.
    Been playing a few games and I was always the underdog, doesn't matter if i went mid and won (ok had great farm but still)
    Just really hard to comprehend the hero and to get the synergy with the team. Such a risky hero, not sure if it's worth trying to get good with him.
    Gemini's probably one of the biggest tryhard heroes imo and I like that, and by that I mean you actually have got to try hard and sometimes sacrifice yourself or take huge risks in order to benefit your team.
    Can't deny he's pretty fun to play but then again, the team you have is all or nothing.

    The hero can't solo gank as easily/at all nowadays, that's probably the most significant nerf imo. Because, he IS a ganker/carry no?
    (a decent one if successful.)
    I like that S2 balanced him out but right now he's a bit below the average to be honest.
    Last edited by `Krigsbest; 04-21-2012 at 03:24 AM.



  17. #97
    I'd argue the opposite: that Gemini is one of the most team independent heroes in the game atm. He should always go mid or suicide lane which is very team independent. He roams by himself. He needs nearly no protection when he farms. During an average game, Gemini should be, by far, the strongest player around mid game when team fights start happening so your team just sort of revolves around you by itself. It isn't until late game that it is really necessary to coordinate anything with your team.

    Now, of course, I interact with my team during the entire game anyway as you should with any hero. It simply is not entirely necessary as Gemini.

  18. #98
    That's right. You don't really need team backup for anything until lategame. When you're ganking you can almost get kills with minimal effort from your team, and if needed you can towerdive and escape by yourself most of the time. With some decent farm going he can dive into the middle of 2-3, get kills and still get away, he has good roaming abilities, he can snowball due to his fast/split farming and ganks, and he can push and even backdoor towers with relative ease. Heck, you can even solo Kong with him if you have an Abyssal. This hero is sort of designed to finish games early anyway and the worst thing you can do with him is prolong games.

    What's in question in this thread is his ability to actually perform all of these regulary. Given 200 games played with him I can say he is decent... not the best pick but can be very useful if things go right and almost single-handledly win games on his own. What sets him back is the survival department. He is more vulnerable to heavy stun teams and he feels slightly weaker than he should be pre level 11.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by zstarkey42 View Post
    What's in question in this thread is his ability to actually perform all of these regulary. Given 200 games played with him I can say he is decent... not the best pick but can be very useful if things go right and almost single-handledly win games on his own. What sets him back is the survival department. He is more vulnerable to heavy stun teams and he feels slightly weaker than he should be pre level 11.
    ^Whole-heartedly agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonwing View Post
    The community thought that pre-nerf Gemini was superultramega broken. I am quite sure that a buff to 100% stats at level 1 would make him more or less the same for me as he was pre-nerf (pre-nerf also implying superultra broken).
    I very much doubt that The only thing it will do is allow Gemini to have more liberal use of his ultimate at lower levels once again (imho the way it should be), keep in mind that armor values are set to a static 5 armor/magic armor (and obviously he can't use items in this form), with the interrupt nerf there are many ways to simply keep the Wolves locked down and kill one; the difference is instead of just flat out killing Fire & Ice to punish him for using it (how it currently is at low levels, you catch him in Fire & Ice he's basically dead), you'll need to rely more on having a stunner/silencer to do so once again.

    I personally don't think that's bad at all, and is rather how it should be. once again even before the major nerfs Gemini's early game pre-11/16 was always balanced in my opinion, it was just the level 11 and 16 (430 whopping movement speed, that's contending with Striders with no cooldown) movement speed boosts WITHOUT boots that made it grossly overpowered and broken in combination with the amount of stats getting picked up due to the free inventory slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonwing View Post
    Nerfing incrementally is easy. The problem is the huge and massive nerf made it so any relative sense of balance was lost. Any buffs would be guesswork at this point.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by PrestonLee; 04-21-2012 at 01:24 PM.
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  20. #100
    with the way they nerfed tort's impalement and the obvious trend of nerfing the popular heroes, I think it is best to wait until it all settles. Afterward, a stats buff to 100% at all levels would be a good thing to explore. That's most likely my final opinion on the hero. I do think that perhaps I've just learned to accept the very weak level 6 ult. In all fairness, it would not hurt to power it up just a tad.

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