Thread: [2.5.18] Gemini

View Poll Results: Gemini?

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  • Too strong

    4 5.33%
  • Borderline

    24 32.00%
  • Too weak

    47 62.67%
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  1. #61
    Well, you forget the fact that every Dota hero is completly balanced by nature, even when it gets ported to a whole different game. It seems to float on people's minds a lot lately.
    I heard Gemini was not even used that much in the competitive scene before the nerfs, so the only reasoning I see in them was to stop with all the QQ in forums and pubgames. Thing is, why are there countless pubstompers left untouched while things like Gemini and Tremble get nerfed to the ground?

    Back on topic though:
    Suggestions so far on making this hero viable again:
    - Remove dual channel
    - Possibly increase the stat scaling to something like 90-95-100% instead? The wolves already took a big nerf early game due to the need to build boots, 80% stat scaling at this stage makes them too weak to be effective.
    Last edited by starkey444; 04-08-2012 at 07:05 PM.

  2. #62
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    I don't even think he was open for tournament play before the nerfs...
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  3. #63
    I totally agree with the dual stat being removed , would give him that buff he needs , but i disagree with stat scaling , the stat scaling is fine but however the wolves do need a slight buff on the MS because when in ult form even when u have steamboots its near impossible to chase people down.

  4. #64
    If we're just tossing buffs out here at this point, I think all the ultimate needs is the bonus MS back, after that it would be a good place to see if he needs the dual channel removed as well.
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  5. #65
    Competitive players all agreed to auto-ban him because he was obviously broken and I remember a n0tail quote, "no point learning him he's going to be nerfed anyway". Every competitive streamer I watched despised Gemini pickers and often lost to terrible players because he was so broken.

    Gemini was on another level of broken to Midas, Monarch and Tremble.

    The fact that a good player could take him and make him even more overpowered does not make him balanced. It just makes him more overpowered.

    I feel it is necessary to say this because people are starting to go on a tangent of "Gemini wasn't overpowered, they just nerfed him because of 1500's spamming the forums".

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfina View Post
    Competitive players all agreed to auto-ban him because he was obviously broken and I remember a n0tail quote, "no point learning him he's going to be nerfed anyway". Every competitive streamer I watched despised Gemini pickers and often lost to terrible players because he was so broken.

    Gemini was on another level of broken to Midas, Monarch and Tremble.

    The fact that a good player could take him and make him even more overpowered does not make him balanced. It just makes him more overpowered.

    I feel it is necessary to say this because people are starting to go on a tangent of "Gemini wasn't overpowered, they just nerfed him because of 1500's spamming the forums".
    That n0tail quote just shows ignorance, regardless of skill level. If he didn't take the time to learn him, how can he start trying to counter? That seemed to be a popular sentiment amongst the ultra-conservative comptetive community.

  7. #67
    Tell you what, when you learn how to counter 2 3k hp wolves midgame who can effectively negate your entire damage output by recombining and splitting, let us in on the secret.

  8. #68
    The hero is an abomination... He basically becomes a whole "new" hero when he splits into ulti form.

    His three other skills doesnt relate to the abilities he has while splitted. This means you either will have to focus your item-build on being in split form (stacking stats) or be in his normal form (getting proc items to maximize his twin-strike).

    Terrible hero concept. I've been wanted the ultimate reworked ever since the hero came out.
    "HoN is a hardcore "moba" game, not an esport game. Yes we have the best title for eSports in our genre, but eSports and its players accounts for very very little of HoN's playerbase," - Phil The Thrill, director of e-sports

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonasies View Post
    The hero is an abomination... He basically becomes a whole "new" hero when he splits into ulti form.

    His three other skills doesnt relate to the abilities he has while splitted. This means you either will have to focus your item-build on being in split form (stacking stats) or be in his normal form (getting proc items to maximize his twin-strike).

    Terrible hero concept. I've been wanted the ultimate reworked ever since the hero came out.
    Uhmm... no. His ult and normal simply have different purposes in different stages of the game, and there are ways to build him that take advantage of both forms very well. For an indept explanation on that feel free to read the previous replies to this thread. This thread is not for discussing remakes.

    Moving on...
    what do people think that needs to be unnerfed the most? This stats scaling or move speed?
    Last edited by zstarkey42; 04-09-2012 at 06:10 PM.

  10. #70
    How to counter a Gemini? Don't let him farm, take stunners and mana hungry heroes and he'll be done.
    Anyway I think he was pretty OP and now I think hes pretty balance if in the good hands, maybe undoing that ulti nerf could make him a bit more viable again,
    and i've seen a lot of Gemini's stomp just cause people let him farm. All in all he's pretty balance and I pray to God to never bring the old Gemini back...

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by starkey444 View Post
    b) a lot of end-game viability as you have 422 move speed, a 10% slow on first impact frostburn, 70% chance to trigger mini stuns +100 damage and a 50% chance to trigger brutalizer stuns +25 damage. All this with a relatively high attack speed (~1.7). On top of that you have +25% damage, a solid escape, chase and stun toguether with a 300 damage aoe nuke with a slow/dot. He can carry decently well.
    Please don't quote statistics if you don't know how they work. Here's how the big boys calculate probabilities small son:
    100%-((100%-35%)*(100%-35%)) = 57.75% (chance for savage mace proc)
    100%-((100%-25%)*(100%-25%)) = 43.75% (chance for brutalizer proc)

    Gemini has terrible design issues and should be deleted. Or don't, it's not like anyone will pick him anyway.
    Last edited by da_fume; 04-12-2012 at 03:27 PM.

  12. #72
    He's a decent pub-ganker, good at ganking with a Q+W(+ult) max build early on, then transitioning into semi-carry later with a farm advantage.

    No reason to pick him over other heroes though (besides trolling/outplaying factor), requires way too much effort to be even decent, and people who don't have the skill to play him will find him utter trash. The only thing that makes him 'decent' with some skill is his above-average burst COMBINING nukes from your normal form AND THEN jumping into ulti form to get the most out of the hero, but even then he becomes incredibly squishy/vulnerable when in ulti form, so the most part he's just a risky melee nuker hero.

    Main glaring flaws:
    1. ultimate is complete trash at level 1 now, no reason to even skill it except for the free "go back to fountain to heal then recombine" factor if laning mid (still makes you more vulnerable to ganks though). Wolves are WAY to squishy to even be worth staying in early on, most of the time going in Wolf form is going to get you killed early on. Only good for whacking at a tower when NO ONE is around and you're backed up by the creepwave.

    2. ultimate is still pretty trashy at skill level 2 and 3, the only reason to change into Wolf form is the added burst you get; especially late game, you're SUPPOSED to be transitioning into carry mode, NOT screwing around in Wolves form where you're just prone to getting CC'ed down and dying instead of carrying. granted, yes at level 3 the burst from wolves is pretty huge. But in general, just plain little motivation to use ultimate form except for extra burst and soloing a tower late game or something.

    3. no ****ing synergy whatsoever with ulti and his three other skills; this is the main reason his design fails so hard. when you go into ult form, his other three skills BECOME COMPLETELY USELESS. I mean like honestly, who the hell came up with the idea to do this? The RIGHT way to clean up the stats-build problem SHOULD BE to directly link his Wolve's skills with his Skills in normal form to discourage skilling stats over skills, not make him subpar in every way you build him and throwing the hero in the gutter.. lol

    4. BECAUSE of his lack of synergy with his whole skillset, his item build is just a big WTF question mark..

    The hero just plain doesn't synergize with his skills AT ALL. He has two burst skills that suggest/motivate him to be a ganker early on (Q+W) suggesting he needs mana regen to upkeep that, but then he has a 3rd passive that motivates him to be a carry (E) but then skilling it only increases his damage subtly (in most cases it's a 1point wonder skill for procs), in other words it's a trash skill that should only be leveled late game after stats to somewhat increase his (crappy) carry potential.. BUT THEN he has his retarded ult that doesn't synergize at all with anything else he has, and basically makes him two big creeps that take on your stats (one that carries your auras if you pick up any) with that only do decent burst mid-late game, but by then they're proned to getting CC'ed down and if one Wolf dies he dies.. WHAT THE **** ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO BUILD ON HIM?

    (well, the answer is stat-oriented utility items, allows him to take advantage of his ganky burst nature early while giving him stats, gives him stats/survivability/mobility in both normal and Wolves form, to synergize with his double proc chance as well as give his ultimate form some stats to work with, then top it off with / for tankiness, and for damage. Oh and to give his Wolves in ult form lifesteal, possibly if you want to focus on pushing/backdooring. Oh and he needs to not get CC'ed down in normal form late-game, but the catch is he can't use it in ulti form. COOL, we've established all the pickups he needs to be useful! Now here's the problem though.. HE ONLY HAS 6 ITEM SLOTS, and MOST OF THESE ITEMS ARE CORE ON HIM TO NOT MAKE HIM USELESS!! no matter how you put it every combination of these items is gonna end up making him falling short in terms of usefulness and make him subpar with a glaring weakness late-game in some form..)

    tl;dr
    Gemini has terrible design issues and should be deleted. Or don't, it's not like anyone will pick him anyway.
    ^pretty much this for the most part needs a complete rework, he's pretty much a melee caster right now with some decent burst, but other than that has no reason worth picking over other heroes.. design/skill synergy is a complete mess and one of the better examples of how badly S2 fails at hero design/balance and again, most of it stems from the fact that HIS ULT HAS NO SYNERGY WHATSOEVER WITH his skills, making all his item builds a complete mess where if he takes one route he'll fall short in another category.

    The only way to efficiently use this hero is to gank well enough with his burst potential early on to snowball HARD so you can make up for all the shortcomings on his crappy design.

    big rework is in need, most specifically with his ulti, no other way of getting around it.
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  13. #73
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    Don't buff him, wait until I have mastered him. He's one of the best heroes in game.

    Well, if you have to, set the 80%/90%/100% stats gained to a static 100%.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by da_fume View Post
    Please don't quote statistics if you don't know how they work. Here's how the big boys calculate probabilities small son:
    100%-((100%-35%)*(100%-35%)) = 57.75% (chance for savage mace proc)
    100%-((100%-25%)*(100%-25%)) = 43.75% (chance for brutalizer proc)
    I think that's the first time in this thread someone points out a flaw in something I've said with reasoning behind. However, you forgot to notice one of those propositions is irrelevant in practice. I'll leave that for you to find out as homework.

    @PrestonLee
    Nobody really plays him like that anymore, and it's not anywhere close to being his main strenght; if you must though, have fun blowing all your mana and escape to maybe kill a single target that is required to be static and witouth an escape over a long process during which you are completly vulnerable and with your 700 hp with the wolves due to not pumping stats or following a str/agi build.

    As for his design issues and his ultimate not synergizing with his other skills, I fail to see the problem. His normal leap and slow are always useful in case your wolves can not reach someone... they are also what you'll be using to escape after killing someone with your ultimate. Makes perfect synergy to me to be honest. What makes you think you're going to spend the entire game in ult form?...

    And also, do you want a list of heros whose ultimates become gradually useless and their passives stronger as the game goes on...?

  15. #75
    every time I want to post in this thread, a voice in my head keeps telling me 'No, not worth it'. Wonder what that's about.
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  16. #76
    I have been playing Gemini post-nerf a lot. The skill build I have entails a 4-4-1-0 at level 9, then skilling stats until I believe it is necessary to pick up more in E (double-attack). At this point, I really believe the ultimate form is near useless. I've seen a few people be nearly effective with split form. Like everyone says, though, his ult is counter-productive to the rest of his skills because he only gains stats and movement speed from base form.

    Honestly, I really like Gemini's concept. I love his BASE form concept (QWE). The ultimate needs some sort of rework to utilize his other skills. Maybe give him a pushing/ganker type ulti? The split form idea is a really cool one but as it is (since the deserved nerf) it isn't cohesive.

    My two cents. Thanks.

  17. #77
    The problem now is that you cannot build for ulti (stat based) and Passive (item based) at same time. Keep him the way he is, but Change his ULT completely.

    Make it like Panda Brewmaster's ult from dota. ULti split into 2 wolves for 1 minute. Wolves have full health. Heroe respawns on a wolf after 1 minute as long as 1 of them survive.

    Another solution would be to have SOTM give him back all his old benefits in ULT form. This is good b/c he will still have to buy boots early (but can sell them later after sotm). Also he will be easier to kill earlier due to channeling nerf. Also he would be less stronger in ult form early due to stat nerf. However after you rush SOTM you get all these benefits back. This is Key b/c it prevents the ridiculous earlygame snowball that he had from lvl 6+ before.
    Last edited by hmontana; 04-13-2012 at 03:57 PM.

  18. #78
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    This thread is basically full of people making suggestions, complaining that he needs to be redesigned, and doing things that the Balance forum is not for.

    This thread is supposed to be about discussing his weaknesses and his strengths, not posting your ideas.

    If you don't use Gemini's ultimate or you think it's useless, you're playing him wrong, plain and simple. It used to be extremely good, and even with the stat nerfs it is still worth basing your early game around the ultimate form.

  19. #79
    I hope the developers in charge of balance can take some input in this thread from the few people that play this hero (maybe 4 so far). Right now I think the most useful changes to get Gemini started on his way to being really good would be:
    - increase base speed to 305-310 or something (this would influence both his normal and ult obviously and make it get the chasing potential back. He won't be as fast as before but very close to that only if you have the right boots and items)
    - reverse the double channel nerf. EVERYONE who played this hero right know that this is what destroyed him. Oh god the list of counters to this hero went from half a dozen hard AOE CC to pretty much anyone with inbuild stun on hit or regular duration stun/silences.

    I don't care with the nerfed stats at lv 6-11, we can live with that, and to be honest he is not that bad at 6 with a bracer/soulscreamer ring/marchers and stats build. You can very easily towerdive any squishy and kill them from full hp if noone else shows up as of now if they dont have any heavy stuns... This hero can still snowball well, the difference is you actually need to know what you're doing (and I say this because some people still play him with sucess in 1700+)
    Last edited by zstarkey42; 04-13-2012 at 06:10 PM.

  20. #80
    agree totally with zstarkey here the channel stun nerf completly killed him really , they need to do something about the channel just because the wolves are either too squishy at level 6 or u cannot recombine because of so much stun.

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