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Too strong
Borderline
Too weak
IMO the only thing that hold Gemini down is he/she cannot use item in split form which severely limits his build (either go for stat build or go for proc build).
Solution?
Divide the inventory of each split into three each so that even if they divided they still can use their item
Top row item go for the first wolf and bottom item row go for the second wolf.
Double shrunken head anyone?
I'm not sure why people still debate this after being stated countless times in this thread that there are quite a few items with good stats AND attack procs. If you use the hero to its full potential (i.e not skip his ultimate) you will see that there is no problem itemmizing him at all (frostburn, brutalizer, nullfire, etc). It's only endgame that you get items that only benefit your main form (savage, SH)... since your ulti is not very useful at this point anymore.Originally Posted by KawaiChan
I don't think activating items on ulti is the way to go. If built right, the hero is essentially 2 with decent mobily, high damage, good burst, a pseudo-heal, ability to maximize gold by controling 2 different parts of the map, a reliable escape or a strong stun follow-up combined by even more burst in normal form if needed. There's no reason to make it unkillable because even as of now it is not difficult to have 2.5K hp fire and ice by level 16 with high armor, magic resist and above average movement speed. Don't get me wrong, SH is still a core item on almost every game with this hero (as well as any other melee), but it only comes of use after level 20 and beyond, when your normal form is carrying harder than fire and ice with accumulated proc items.
It would be nice to have a reduced channeling time in the ultimate, though.
Last edited by zstarkey42; 06-25-2012 at 05:45 AM.
The slow orb, 10 dammage, 20 atk speed is wasted in he ulti form. So, do you buy a 4400 gold item for just the 16 STR/AGI and 14% more MS?
Stun do not work on ulti form and you lose the +20 damage so that you can get +10 in STR/AGI for an 3100 gold item. Worth it?
You lose the purge and the mana burn in ulti form. The only upside is you get the 26 AGI and 10 INT for GEMINI in ulti form.
Yeah I don't really see THE ITEM PROBLEM here.
Items work twice as well in Fire/Ice form. 26 agi on Nullfire? Try 52. only 16/16 stats on Frostburn? More like 32/32 while turning your wolves into chasing machines of doom with the 14% MS.
Yeah I don't really see THE ITEM PROBLEM here.
God forbid you farm a heart (Great pickup for normal form as well). Your wolves are nigh-unkillable without epic chain stunning or burst damage.
Don't forget Abyssal. A great item on Gemini and an even better item on Fire and Ice.
These items are already extremely good on Fire and Ice. Making anything else from items propagate to the wolves would be b-r-o-k-e-n.
If you don't mind the useless buildup for the hero you should give Insanitarius a try. For 2750g you get 25 str for a rather cheap price and it doesen't tick your hp down if you're using Fire and Ice. And once you're using the normal form, all your accumulated regen due to STR and lifesteal from abyssal make the drain close to neglible while adding another whooping 475 hp on top of that.
This hero has no problems with items really. He actually allows for imaginative builds, unlike a lot of 'balanced' heros that have 1 way to play, 1 way to skill and the same itembuild every single game.
Last edited by zstarkey42; 06-26-2012 at 04:43 AM.
I would have to disagree with you sir. Sure I know that the stat bonus is applied on both wolf but Gemini still going to die if you kill either one of the wolf. And without shrunken head it is not a hard things to do considering that you will get stunned if try to recombine. It not like they get 32/32 stat on a single wolf don't they?
Also I don't think that the health Regen bonus from the heart is working on Gemini on split form. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It's obvious the only stat that works exacttly as x2 in practice is agility, which represents his damage output. If you purchase an item with +32 agi (like Null) you end up with 2 wolves with +32 damage, which means you effectively doubled the total damage output to 64. However, STR is still the most important stat for him, wether you take full advantage of it at all times or not (because it doesen't matter if your hp goes to both forms when it only takes one of them to fall for you to die), and this is because the longer EITHER of them stays alive, the longer you're going to be able to chase people around, and the more chances you'll have to pull off a recombine before you die. The prime reason of following the 'stats build' is so your wolves reach ridiculous amounts of EHP at earlier stages of the game (because in ultimate form you have free vestments, and very good armor due to his high agi gain as well as the ability to completly negate the damage done to one of them via recombine). One of the main reasons why pre-nerf Gemini was deemed as imbalanced was due to the extreme survivability he was able to get with all these factors combined with the need of disabling both wolves to prevent a recombine. However, even if such nerf was to be reverted I believe the hero wouldn't become grossly overpowered again, because of other reasons I mentioned in the main topic, but that is another issue.
SO yes, stats still benefit this hero more than any other in game, and even if certain items provide 'useless' bonuses in your ultimate form, you can be sure any amount of added str/agi makes a hell of a difference with fire and ice which still makes them viable, and actually promotes the player to explore different builds. While the items I use are mostly set in stone for most of my games, there are still countless of other ways to build items on him. I personally never found heart to be that useful on him, as neither the HP or regen are applied in ulti form, and it still isn't that amazing in normal form considering the cost, but that's just me - I'd rather get a frostwolf as a last item instead if I have so much gold to spare.
Last edited by zstarkey42; 06-27-2012 at 11:34 AM.
I claimed that str is doubly as effective because, unlike most heroes, Gemini is VERY threatening to the very last hitpoint. If you hit a Madman down to 5 HP yea he is still a Madman but if he re=enters the battle he will most likely die in one or two hits, mitigating his usefullness. If you hit Fire/Ice down to 5 hp, he can recombine to functional hp again and get back into the fight. Every hit point on Gemini is one more hitpoint that you can use toward a recombine. No other hero utilizes hit points so effectively.
Maybe you are right about the stat bonus but my point still stand. Some item lose it's utility when gemini is in split form. Item like frostburn lose it's slow orb, brutalizer loses it's stun and purge stick loses it's active and mana burn.
The orb and active item limitations during his ultimate are more than compensated by other things such as a more rewarding stat influence, the ability to negate mass amounts of damage and the unique ability of controlling in 2 remote places at once via the teleport. Your orbs and actives will mostly be useful lategame when you're using your normal form anyway, and they gain much more influence with your passive so nothing is 'wasted'.
Last edited by zstarkey42; 06-27-2012 at 05:53 PM.
Yet, in ulti form, gemini gains twice the stats in exchange for no secondary effects (which was already pointed out). But what wasn't pointed out is that gemini gains twice the effectiveness in normal form with nullfire stealing 72 mana (more than MB) or having a brutalizer+savage nets him a 72% chance of stunning on EACH auto-attack, which is really insane.
Gemini needs his stun to be aimed between 0 and 800 instead of always traveling 800 units. This change alone is the only thing this hero needs now. The rest is fine, his damage boosting skill is unique, his ult is somewhat fine even though overnerfed, mid game, it can become a very devastating tool.
Everything else about this hero is great, stats are fine, damage potential is amazing, he remains an agi hero.
I hope that never happens. Hard carries with easy to land stuns are abominable.
I'm judged by my wild image a lot
And everybody seems to think I have a sinister plot
I do! Be offended by every sentence I jot
I got some militant thoughts, and you ain't killin' 'em off!
So listen...
I must agree on this - best example is silhouette. However, what would be interesting is for the stun duration and damage to grow the longer the range, starting with 0 dmg, 0 sec stun in point blank range. That would be a very interesting mechanic. As of now, it's a bit odd gemini needs to back off in order to land his stun.
I don't think there's anything wrong with his leap. The skill is already one of the best escapes in the game, which disjoints, deals damage and has invulnerability built in with a stun on a rather decent cooldown. It's reasonable to assume it's not going to be easy to use. It takes some experience to land it consistently, and there's really nothing wrong with that. The only thing I'd like to see in it is removing that silly cast time.
To me, the only thing this hero needs lies on his ultimate. I really find it overnerfed at earlier levels. You can't gank very well or farm the jungle very well with it at rank 1, and it takes a big hit on his game pace early on. Even with 2 bracers and 3 levels worth of stats his ultimate still can't get past 800ish hp by level 6 which makes it very risky to roam with one wolf alone, thus limiting his mobility and influence. I don't think it's unreasonable to set the stat scaling back how it was since he was already nerfed in other ways (and rightfully so).
i have a simple suggestion. Because this hero has become nerfed to death, unless a handful of people REALLY lOVE gemini, just delete this hero. honestly, the hero is more harm than good at this point.
That's an interesting oppinion - erase heros that people don't know how to play with.
Anyway, for the people that still do play him, I recently started using this build, which improves his solo mid ability and strenghtens his ganking potential early on. The added burst from leveling Twin Breath early on is quite effective to secure kills and add solid extra damage while fire and ice are still weak. It's particulary strong if you bother to pickup runes, as the heavy mix of damage of all your nukes is often enough to kill almost anyone by level 7 (950 dmg or so) provided you have full mana, and it only comes at the cost of 2 levels worth of stat ups earlier on, which are easily compensated by purchasing a bracer/ring/locket early. He plays exactly the same as before with this build, with a higher emphasis on ganking once you reach 6.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroe...php?gid=149004
Last edited by zstarkey42; 06-29-2012 at 06:57 AM.
He is patethic now, 2 easy to counter recombination and his MS is to low, basically requires a 4400+500 item(s) to regain his former mobility.
I personaly disagreed with the MS nerf but changing either back would make him much more viable.
Well, the ms nerf was done so a hero wouldn't have to skip boots and have insta 430 speed regardless (that's a ridiculous speed for a long time with an extra inventory slot). I think a slight increase on his base speed from 300 to 310 would do no harm, though (since it carries to his ultimate now).
Last edited by zstarkey42; 07-01-2012 at 05:26 AM.
Increase his Base Movement Speed.
Decrease cast time of splitting up. (Not recombining.)
And dont you dare delete my Gemini, I love that puppy.
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