[2.5.18] Gemini

[[f13]`11411181]

Press D, receive stats. Everyone remembers that.

[[GUK]NyanVulpix]

I just don't understand why the ultimate is so horrible. Why would you waste putting a point into an ability that lowers your health by 20% and halves the duration of your only stun and lowers its damage? The normal form stun is also very dumb, doesn't do much damage and doesn't stun very long for it's ridiculous placement/distance requirement.

[foxmindedguy]

Although this may sound weird and unprecedentedly unorthodox but what if they make it so that Gemini starts in Fire and Ice form, and in the ultimate turns into Gemini. If they are reworking him, of course.

I mean currently the whole issue is that splitting into two doesn't give much incentives (especially at earlier levels of the ultimate), I think this reverse mechanic could help address that issue.

[[f13]zstarkey42]

His problem is not design wise, as stated a million times in this thread already.

He just needs his stats back in earlier levels of Fire and Ice. It is still viable to play him focusing on his ultimate early, but the problem is the hero is not very relevant early on with low str/agi like now. Just because less than 1% of the population can play him properly it doesen't mean he needs a rework.

[Ripoff]

Meh, I voted for Gemini in the "Who needs a rework" poll. Just seem like a failed concept to me.

[Iuchiban]

Make Gemini get aditional stats in ult form for every point spent on other skills. Make Gemini get average hp from both wolfs after recombine. Revert those retarded nerfs... really. Gemini in ult form SO luckluster. No escape, no way for magic immune, SLOW as ... turtle , no scaling.... and hard to play (i don't gemini to be easy to play - don't get me wrong).

I wish Gemini in ult form could use attack modifiers

[PzKw]

His problem damned well is design wise. His balance problems are caused by his design being too shitty to be allowed to be viable.

[[f13]Demonwing]

His problem damned well is design wise. His balance problems are caused by his design being too shitty to be allowed to be viable.

A one-line rebuttal to paragraphs upon paragraphs of counter-evidence.
Impressive.

[PzKw]

I'm not here to impress you, or restate arguments I've made a dozen times before. Hypothetically though, if I were to take a razor to Gemini in a private forum with a little analysis, a first draft might look something like this:

Summary:
Gemini received a weighted vote of 16 for bad design, as well as a mixed 2 - 3 weighted vote for OP/UP, which signals that the hero doesn't function properly and is all over the place.

When pressed, most people only talk about Gemini in abstract terms, because he's very different. It's broadly agreed that the ultimate at the moment is best summarised as an extra two nukes that you use as part of a combo on him. I identify the biggest design flaw as being that the two dogs in ult form are meant to be opposites, but are completely identical and get used as a single hero in a single command group most of the time.

There are a lot of levers to adjust Gemini's balance with. He's not inherrently poorly designed, he just suffers from a lack of refinement on his concept. I get the feeling he was pushed through design and testing faster than he was meant to based on the fact that he was released with gamebreaking bugs, and glaring design problems that necessitated destroying him with nerfs not too long after his release. Beyond this there are some issues with how his abilities relate to his ult form (they don't scale with each other) and some issues with how his non-ult form is an extremely generic skillset with two nukes, an escape and a steroid - he almost couldn't have been more vanilla if anyone tried.

The priorities for this remake are:
Make fire and ice opposites.
Discourage the use of fire and ice together.
Reward micro, anticipation and timing when swapping betwen ult and normal form.
Make both his ultimate and normal form integral to his playstyle so that neither can predominate.
Minimise the amount of difficult recoding that needs to occur.

In order to achieve this, I envisage Gemini as an underpowered hero without his ultimate. His nukes will need to be rescaled so that they're terribad stock in vanilla form. Fire and Ice will be reworked so that they are functionally very different within the limitations of easy coding and can't be used in a single control group easily. From there, I envisage a bonus system that rewards keeping the two dogs apart from each other which has a short term linger when Gemini is remerged, these bonuses include better nukes. I envisage his dogs nukes working better seperate, but obviously not keeping all their bonuses on each.

Summary:

• Twin Breath

Gemini spews out a cone of flame and frost, pelting nearby fools with elemental fury

Action

Target Dual Position

Type

Enemy Units


Type: Magic
Range: 400
Cast Time: 0.7 Seconds
Mana Cost: 90 / 100 / 110 / 120
Cooldown: 14.0 Seconds
Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

Activation
Unleashes a swirling cone of flame and frost which deals 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 Magic Damage, 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 M agic Damage per second for 1 second, and a 5/10/15/20% Movement Speed Slow for 1 second.

• Twin Fangs

Gemini splits his fire and ice essences, allowing each to streak forth before explosively recombining

Action

Target Position

Type

Enemy Units


Type: Magic
Range: 800
Cast Time: 0.8 Seconds
Mana Cost: 100
Cooldown: 14.0 Seconds
Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

Activation
Causes Gemini to split into two forms that travel side by side for 800 units in target direction. Units each form touch suffer 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 Magic Damage, and the forms recombine at the end, stunning enemies in a 200 radius for 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 / 1.25 seconds.

• Twin Strike

When Gemini strikes, his whirling dance of fire and ice whips out at the target, effectively striking again.

Action

Passive


Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

On Attack
Makes Gemini's attacks deal a bonus attack for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% of normal Damage to the target.




No change to this ability, because it needs an entire rework to be balanced with this hero. Current numbers will do.

• Fire and Ice

Gemini reveals that he is truly a combination of two elemental entities, Fire and Ice, and reverts to his basic state of two forms.


Action

Target Self


Cast Time: 1.0 Seconds
Cooldown: 60.0 Seconds
Required Level: 6 / 11 / 16

Activation
Splits Gemini into two forms, Fire and Ice.

Fire is the essence of speed and damage, gaining movespeed, damage and agility when seperated from Ice.

Ice is hardy and cunning, gaining survivability and more disable time on his abilities when seperated from Fire.

Dogs must be over 3000/2000/1000 units away to gain bonuses. Bonuses last for up to 3/5/7 seconds when reunited.

Only one dog is required to channel the merge, on merging Gemini's health and mana are set to the higher of the two dogs'.










That's all the tooltip should say the mechanics are as follows:

Fire gains Gemini's auras, 5.5 Magic armour, 4/6/8 flat physical armour, his movespeed +50, his bonus damage from Twin Strikes, his current level in Twin Breath and Twin Fangs' damage + up to 20/40/60 extra DoT damage for up to 2/3/4 seconds extra duration and up to 80/95/110% of his agility. His strength and intelligence are set to 50/60/70% of Gemini's.

Ice gains Gemini's magic armour +3/5/7, his physical armour +5/8/11, his movespeed -50, a stacking 10/15/20/25 ms debuff scaled off twin strikes, Gemini's current level in Twin Breath and Twin Fangs' stun and slow + up to 3/4/5 seconds extra slow with 20% extra slow at all levels, and 1/1.5/2 seconds extra stun time with an AOE of 250/325/400 (no AOE when not seperated from fire, base stun on Gemini ability has 200 aoe though and it scales off that). His strength goes up to 80/95/110% of Gemini's strength. His agility and intelligence are set to 50/60/70% of Gemini's.

Both dogs spawn with 50% of Gemini's stats, Gemini's MA, Gemini's armour, Gemini's movespeed, no buffs on attack, and Gemini's slow and stun durations. Dogs gain bonuses once they are more than 3000/2000/1000 units away from each other.

When the dogs are apart, they gain a counter for every 12/8/4 seconds they are apart. The counter is how long the bonuses will last when they go back into the distance from each other, and is capped at 3/5/7. The bonuses are retained for a flat 3/5/7 seconds when Gemini merges. What this means is that when they remerge, Gemini is a powerhouse for 3/5/7 seconds, but then becomes a super mediocre pup again.

Ie. on remerge, he gets longer stun, longer better slow, more DoT damage on both his abilities, free ice brand, +50 ms, +armour and +magic armour.

What this also means is that Gemini is likely to use his Ice to support his team while his Fire farms and is gankbait. I really can't see any of this as being particularly demanding to code. This remake doesn't really solve the problem of Gemini wanting to build procs OR stats but not both, but it does solve the design issues to do with scaling and just using the wolves as a single hero, or as part of a three piece combo.

Inb4 no suggestions. Also, this suggestion tumbled off the front page faster than a human interest story in a broadsheet generating about as much interest as a Japanese savings account, so perhaps the mumbles of assent I heard weren't indicative of imperative for change...

[PzKw]

Also, in the past 6 pages, I've seen a lot of argument by assertion, but not a lot of actual analysis into Gemini's actual design. I would characterise this thread as a shouting match before I'd consider applying a term like debate to it with a straight face. I am also generally of the opinion (analysis above) that anyone who doesn't consider Gemini an utterly butchered design based on a basically sound concept is probably not familiar enough with this game or genre as a whole to be worth listening to anymore. I mean, seriously; a hero with four abilities with no synergy or conceptual similarities except for the colour palate and animation style (hurrr, fire and ice, two of everything, hurr) that people still get up and defend as a bastion of flawless design?

[rtiCulated]

Guys really, stop being silly.

It hasn't got anything to do with his current state, he is balanced because if you begin to judge whether or not he is/isnt, take a look at RA.
He has undertaken 2 huge nerfs although he is still played very well through out early to late.

Geminis' ult just doesn't give you the option to skip boots and rush locket/blessed orbs etc etc.

He is still extremely strong, you just need to understand the nerfs he has taken, and work around with them. Even to this day, I have played with 1800's whom are extremely savage with Gemini.

Its all down to how you play him, his ult is still stupidly over powered because he is 2 heroes in one, without escapes. In some sense he is exactly like tremble just over 9000 times stronger early and mid, and some what late as well.

Look at it from higher tier POV, nerfs and changes are put into place so the game is/tries to be equal for both teams.

In my opinion if you are going to say he needs to be changed, go take a look at elonia, because she is 100% bad ass broken.

[PopCokeSoda]

Before you start advocating for a rework on gemini, play the damn hero 10, 50, 100, maybe 200 times - just enough to realize that "design" wise, he is as true to the dota genre as the first heroes that came out. He doesnt have forced synergy, he can be played in various ways, depending on your skill/micro level and preference. He isn't like gunblade who has 1 itembuild or RA, who sometimes gets a pk or not, but has the same itembuild every frigging time. Or a plethora of many other heroes who when you pick them, can have turned on auto-skilling through the in-game guide, because that's how "well-designed" they are.
I'm really tired of people crying about design of gemini, because he is one of the best designed heroes, most fun to play certainly that S2 introduced to the genre.

It's not the fault of his maker, that people (on average) have absolutely no clue how to counter, let alone play him. Having a bit more complicated hero is good for the game, not bad. I have 200 games played with gemini in the 1800+ bracket. I really know what I'm talking about. Don't know how it is on US servers, but in EU I haven't met another gemini player in my bracket.

I have played with 1800's whom are extremely savage with Gemini.

That would be me.

A simple fix would be to make him a really cool alt avatar to promote playing him in the general public. Scrap my previous comments about him being underpowered. I think he is fine, completely agreeing with demonwing, the maker of the single, most influential guide in HoN history. I have mad respect for him, even though we never actually talked.

[[f13]zstarkey42]

I stopped reading most posts that claim gemini's ult are just 2 bonus walking nukes. I still stand on my oppinion that most people that claim he's broken don't really know how he works or how to play him at all. I have also around 200 games played with him (all of them post-nerf mind you) ranging from 1500 to 1600 (I'm no pro) so I know what I'm saying. He is still playable and very viable to follow a stat-oriented build with items that are ALSO useful lategame due to his passive. If some of you would take a look around there are plenty of items that have both STATS and proc effects. Their use comes at DIFFERENT stages of the game, which I suspect to me the most common misunderstanding among most people. He does not lack any 'synergy' between normal and ultimate forms because they are supposed to be different entities and useful at DIFFERENT stages of the game. THAT is what makes the hero unique. That is why he has one of the best designs in the game - because there is a multitude of playstyles and builds you can do with him. My only problem with Gemini right now is that he is not a factor in the game as you hit 6 anymore. Due to the stats nerf he NEEDS more early farm and it's only until level 11+ with decent items that he becomes a strong mid-game force. He also farms and moves slower which makes catching up harder if you happen to have a bad start, which is hard to avoid since the hero requires mid and has awful lane control. This is what essentially cuts his utility and ability to take over the game. The only buff he needs is probably having his stats back, or maybe even change his recombine method so he can't be shutdown as easily (then again with stronger early stats this becomes less of a problem as well). I am pretty sure other gemini players (read: the minority of people that actually play him like he's supposed to; no ult-skipping builds) will agree with this, at least to some extent.

Just because a hero does not have auto synergy with his spells that allow you to faceroll on the keyboard doesen't mean he's broken. Just because a certain skill is not useful until lategame doesen't mean it's bad either, and just because you play the hero differently before he's 6, and after he's 20, or because you can't use him with generic carry builds doesen't mean there's anything wrong with him design wise either.

[PzKw]

Sup assertions.

This is why I oneliner'd. There's no substantive analysis of gemini in these posts at all.

[[IaF]Skyve]

Before you start advocating for a rework on gemini, play the damn hero 10, 50, 100, maybe 200 times - just enough to realize that "design" wise, he is as true to the dota genre as the first heroes that came out. He doesnt have forced synergy, he can be played in various ways, depending on your skill/micro level and preference. He isn't like gunblade who has 1 itembuild or RA, who sometimes gets a pk or not, but has the same itembuild every frigging time. Or a plethora of many other heroes who when you pick them, can have turned on auto-skilling through the in-game guide, because that's how "well-designed" they are.
I'm really tired of people crying about design of gemini, because he is one of the best designed heroes, most fun to play certainly that S2 introduced to the genre.

And now you take a deep breath and realize that that is your opinion. And then you take a step further and realize that discussion on design is always going to be heavily opinionated, because it's nigh impossible to set anything in stone that is not heavily based off of someones opinion.

You might also want to consider that Gemini has so far polarized quite heavily between OP and being on the lower end of the spectrum of power, which is something that often does stem from problematic design.

[[f13]Demonwing]

Gemini received a weighted vote of 16 for bad design, as well as a mixed 2 - 3 weighted vote for OP/UP, which signals that the hero doesn't function properly and is all over the place.

When pressed, most people only talk about Gemini in abstract terms, because he's very different.

I assure you that I speak very practically.

It's broadly agreed that the ultimate at the moment is best summarised as an extra two nukes that you use as part of a combo on him.

Broadly agreed by whom? Credible source or logical explanation? All the Gemini experts I know including myself hold quite a different opinion.
His ult is the strongest macro mobility spell in the game allowing him to be in complete control of every important area of the map at all times. Even Nymphora's teleport, strong as it is in the regard, has a lengthy cooldown.


I identify the biggest design flaw as being that the two dogs in ult form are meant to be opposites , but are completely identical and get used as a single hero in a single command group most of the time.

ideally they should very rarely being boxed and moved as a single command group. The wolves must be apart to fully utilize the cross-map teleporting that they are capable of. You can play Ophelia by boxing everything too. This, by no means, indicates that the hero should or can successfully be played in such a way.

I have tended to stay rather quiet/silent lately and would normally allow you to have your opinion uncontested. However, the fact that S2 is seriously considering a rework of this hero is making me have to speak up in its defense.

Do you not find it even a little strange that there is an entire group of people with a high degree of expertise vehemently arguing that a hero is not underpowered (particularly to the point of a rework)? How many times has this occurred in all your time on the balance forum? Many people have played the hero. Many people have achieved high levels of gameplay and reached high brackets with the hero. All of these people really, truly enjoy playing the hero.

Sup assertions.

You and many others have been presented with very, very, very detailed and practical discussions about Gemini ad nauseam. There are replays available. There are gameplay guides available. There are theoretical analysis available. It is all there. Read them. Watch them. If you don't want to, then disengage from the conversation.

It's rather simple. All your "side" has come up with in this entire thread is "no you're wrong" and one or two points that have been proven incorrect so many times it is inconceivable. It is pretty clear you are just looking for something to hate on. Pick a hero like TDL who ACTUALLY needs help. Gemini has a very knowledgable and qualified community behind him.

If you care enough, I suggest that you make a reasoned, well documented, and well thought out discussion. I know that nobody will attempt such a thing, however, because it is pretty clear that nobody in the entire HoN community at this point would be able to win an argument against those supporting him.

You might also want to consider that Gemini has so far polarized quite heavily between OP and being on the lower end of the spectrum of power, which is something that often does stem from problematic design.

I am not, of course, including you in the group I am addressing above Skyve but I would like to remind you that Gemini has never been on the lower end of the spectrum of power. The fact that many Gemini players have easily soloed to high brackets and a simple glance at any good Gemini replay is enough objective proof of that. Gemini has never in his history been functionally underpowered.

[PzKw]

Can a mod bring Demonwing into the loop on the context of that discussion, I don't want to get banned. Also, I'd be happy to discuss the analysis above via IM.

[[f13]`11411181]

Why bother? The cult of Gemini stands strong and will continue to, so long as he exists in his current form.

[[f13]Demonwing]

Can a mod bring Demonwing into the loop on the context of that discussion, I don't want to get banned. Also, I'd be happy to discuss the analysis above via IM.

You may PM me if you wish to discuss anything further.

[[f13]zstarkey42]

I would like to remind you that Gemini has never been on the lower end of the spectrum of power. The fact that many Gemini players have easily soloed to high brackets and a simple glance at any good Gemini replay is enough objective proof of that. Gemini has never in his history been functionally underpowered.

The thing is when a hero has an average of 0.2% use every week, and with an average 42% win rate, it's obvious even for the few people that use him probably don't know how to play it very well either. This leaves us at what, 0.1% that can maybe play the hero as intended and be sucessful with it? To S2 and most other people it's obvious they're going to assume it's underpowered and needs a rework in its current state. A very sparse number of people defending him (like 4 in this thread so far maybe?) isn't likely to change things much, no matter what they claim about the hero. While I still defend that the hero is still very wel playable right now, I don't think an early game buff (like stat nerf removal) would make him overpowered and probably make people realize its potential instead of being reworked

I'm not really bothering with this thread anymore - I created this to have an idea what people think about him so far, but it was apparently a bad idea if it ends up giving S2 an incentive to rework him. I'm not really fond of their latest hero reworks, and it would be a shame to lose an original concept like this because most people still aren't able to play a hero that is just different. I am sure if they released a hero in the lines of Ophelia witouth being directly ported from DoTa, people would be assuming the same kind of things as they do here, how it's unplayable or how every skill contradicts itself in somehow, then again the reason DoTa heros are almost never nerfed or discussed is another subject. I'm starting to think the reason S2 has given up on interesting hero designs lately is to avoid this kind of discussions.

Peace, and thanks for the input people.