He does NOT need a full remake. People have a hard time understanding his ultimate and normal forms are BOTH useful in different stages of the game. After you finish your core items and if the game is not yet finished by the 40 min mark, you will start getting a more hard carry oriented setup. There is NOTHING wrong with that, and Gemini was never meant to be a super crazy hard carry like Chronos or Dark Lady.
I think there is a big misconception among people that you can not itemmize Gemini in a way that he is both useful with his ultimate and normal form. That is false.
is a perfectly fine built till your average 35-40 mins game (~350 gpm. If you can't even maintain a 300+ gpm with this hero you shouldn't be playing it in the first case)
If the game goes on till an hour or so, sell the bracers/locket and farm for a savage mace or shrunken head.
This particular example build gives you
a) a lot of early power and chasing due to early stat stacking and sol's (if you level stats early as well ofc)
b) a lot of end-game viability as you have 422 move speed, a 10% slow on first impact frostburn, 70% chance to trigger mini stuns +100 damage and a 50% chance to trigger brutalizer stuns +25 damage. All this with a relatively high attack speed (~1.7). On top of that you have +25% damage, a solid escape, chase and stun toguether with a 300 damage aoe nuke with a slow/dot. He can carry decently well.
EVEN at late game, you can always initiate in Fire and Ice, and when one gets low you recombine to your main form which gives your full damage to prolong your lifespan. Disjointing also gets rid of most non stun and silence debuffs on yourself.
The only issue with Gemini currently is that his recombine is too 'hard' to pull off as it is now. The hero relied heavily in absorbing damage trough it to maintain his high survivability. This can be fixed by either a) reducing the channel time or b) reverting the channel nerf or maybe c) revert the channel nerf and maybe increase the channel time by 0.3 seconds or something if they feel it's so overpowered.
Again, for the very small number of people that actually know how to play this hero there is nothing wrong with his ultimate and normal forms. Neither of them is useless and each has their role during the game and demonwing's guide for example is a perfectly viable way of building Gemini to be useful both during mid and late game. I see no reason to remake one of the best designed heros in the game when only a few functional issues are holding him back.
Last edited by starkey444; 04-07-2012 at 09:43 AM. Reason: formatting purposes
Reverting the double-channel nerf would put him out of the dumpster tier. The only time I see gemini in my games is when I pick him (or her?) bar a couple of incidents. The hero IS difficult to play, has a high-skill cap, requires attention, CONSTANT map control (meaning, one of your eyes is ALWAYS on the minimap), is micro-intensive, has more skills than a usual hero, which aren't really that straightforward and has an uphill battle from the get-go against your own team (who don't believe you can achieve anything with it) and against the horrible early game that makes it impossible to dominate in a lane. He's practically a creep with a different skin and an escpae mechanism. That's why not many players pick him - which is understandable, not every hero can be the most popular and I'm ok with gemini being the least popular. But the painstackingly low winrate is ONLY because of the double-channel nerf. He is countered by any hero. Even if by some miracle a hero doesnt have a stun or silence, there are items to remedy that (tablet, hellflower, basher, sheepstick, stormspirit). Gemini in ult form CANNOT buy items to prevent being CC'ed to death. Ergo - my first sentence.
I feel in general the nerfs may have gone too far. The nerfs to "stat build" Gemini were totally appropriate, and we may not see his true potential as regularly from a pub standpoint because it takes a better player to take full advantage of the hero now, simply because of the micro/skill shot nature. As far as competitive play as concerned, there still may be easier alternatives overshadowing Gemini in his current state. The gut reaction of the community might have been that they simply saw the nerfs, and they have not bothered to try him out again since. I've probably only had one game with a Gemini in it since the nerfs.
However, I still to this day hate the mechanics on the stun and feel like it's clumsy having a forced range, particularly on a melee hero.
Also: Where in the world did calling Gemini "she" come from?
While fire and ice are typically conflicting elements which negate each other, they are harnessed as one in Gemini. A powerful elemental creature bathed in frost and ember, Gemini confuses foes as contradiction incarnate. Few know - and yet fewer understand - Gemini's origins, but it has been rumored that he is actually a fusion of two separate entities.it has been rumored that he is actually a fusion of two separate entities.he
HONOR- If you need it defined, you don't have it.
person: ''Play him/her(lol) the way he/she was supposed to be played, get proc items. Does any of you understand that with Nullfire blade he burns 72 mana with a single hit? That dog carries pretty damn hard''
Me: That's the item i build around lvl 16 since ulti is bad at this point of the game ...
But i can't agree that gemini carries as hard as u say (even with nullfire) because she lacks something really crucial that all the other hard carries have at this point A REAL ULTI !
magebane, CHRONOS (ohhh god that's an ULTI), Dark lady (if you know how to use it ...),draconis (late game his ulti is the real deal).
Having an ulti that provides me some extra utility that can be shut down so freaking easy (try to split farm against a fayde) ...
is not much of an ultimate to me. On the other hand we have Boris that does the exact same thing with 100% more efficiency
Last edited by ninja_goat; 04-07-2012 at 10:23 AM.
Fire and Ice are not 'bad' after 16, thats actually around the time frame where your character peaks to its strongest. Even with a Nullfire and Brutalizer you still have way more combined damage with Fire and Ice than your main. The only reason you can not effectively 'hard carry' with fire and ice at lategame is because mostly every end-game carry item's strenght comes from
a) sheer attack
b) on-hit effects
c) proc effects
all which don't work with your ultimate form.
Why do people insist that his ultimate needs to be a omgwtf steroid that amplifies his damage lategame and turns him into a hard carry? Do Valk and Emerald have those? No, their ultimates are build into utility, which is the same deal as Gemini's. If you think for a minute all the advantages Fire and Ice give you from level 6-20 (chasing, strong damage, nukes, dual farming, extreme time efficiency, survival, debuff removal) you will see it outclasses a lot of generic steroid ultimates you see around. Lategame is called lategame for a reason. The game does not start there. And Gemini is much stronger than those generic hard carries from level 6+. Just because it's 'not as useful' in lategame does not mean it's useless, especially when you consider the insane farming/ganking/domination you can achieve with it earlier, and how it will reflect in your lategame GPM vs the other teams'. Again, this dog is not a hard carry. I was simply stating he was decent.
Last edited by starkey444; 04-07-2012 at 10:29 AM.
valk and emerald warden are RANGED semi carries ...
in other words they can't be compared to gemini because they have completely different play styles.
Also he (sry guy from above) is not stronger than valk no matter how u try to justify it.
Besides i think we all see why he isn't a hard carry anymore after all these arguements that were posted in this thread so far.....
The fact that he has this kind of passive means that S2 tried to give him hard carry potential but at his current state this passive has no way to synergize with his ulti...
pre-nerf u were building stat items (with on hit effects) u initiated as a double wolf, u threw your combo, you absorbed some dmg and then recombine to take full advantage of your passive.
you can't do this anymore which means u are in no place to hard carry
I still wish this heroes ultimate was more than just two walking bonus nukes.
It would be nice if the hero was reworked into a potentially pushing hardcarry that retains his skills when in split ultimate form (*obviously not a good idea with the current skills) and gets his auras on both wolves.
At the moment he just feels very much like he's trying to be a ranged semi-carry with melee attack range.
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Why is it that when someone picks MB, there's like 1 hero to counter him but people dont whine as much? He's also a pubstomper and is viable in competitive. Gemini was countered by a number of heroes before the nerf and I NEVER had problems with playing against him, prenerf. Why is it that we have (had?) a big thread about catering the balance towards the best players not the average ones, but S2 nerfs a hero 1 month after his release without letting the community to find out a counter to him on their own. In my bracket, gemini wasn't that big of a deal. Now we end up having a discussion about how to bring gemini back to being viable, when we could've already had a discussion about countering gemini and the hero would settle in the game. Now he's forgotten, not the same thing as settled.
Part of the reason Gemini was nerfed was probably because he was being played in a way that was unintended by his designers. When they designed the hero, they did so with the intention of him being played a certain way. People found his strengths were elsewhere and adapted to suit them. The same holds true to a degree with Engineer's many changes over the course of time.
While balance is primarily done for the competitive scene, they still need to make heroes to be within a reasonable window of balance for regular pubbers too. It's the same reason heroes like Spiritbreaker or Strygwyr have/had been left without major changes in dota; they obliterate pubs despite being mostly useless in comp games. (I haven't played dota in quite some time, so I don't know if that necessarily still holds true, but the point still stands).
HONOR- If you need it defined, you don't have it.
Simply give him a +20/30/40 ms to hit ult and I think he'll be fine...
As With many others, I think that the channelling nerf should be removed, or changed somehow.
Otherwise, she is fine how she is.
She's very underplayed now (the least played herp), the buff might encourage players to play her again, showing her potential.
The entire idea behind this hero is his ulti, so why the #*$( does his passive expand on his intact solo form?? are you dumb S2?
I'm starting to think the number of people that ask for remakes still show that people still don't know how this hero works at all. With this in mind I'm starting to think he maye have been nerfed wrongfully because people still don't know how to play against him either. No offense but I don't think we've had the input from more than maybe 3 people in this thread so far that actually have optimal experience playing him. -_-
There is nothing wrong with his passive and ultimate 'synergy'. They are simply useful in different stages of the game. Why do people have a problem with this? Should MQ be remade because she favours her Q and stats early game and only starts leveling her multistrike at end-game? Should we remake Hammerstorm as well because people only level his stun and stats early on and don't even touch his splash till levels 22 or so? Is this bad design as well? How about swiftblade that only cares about his frenzy and swift strikes and rest stats till at least level 16? No, there are heros where stats are particulary more useful earlier than some skills and there is nothing wrong with that. With a normal Gemini skill build you will be using your leap plenty of times during early-mid game, and your regular Breath will be maxed by level 14 or so, which still proves quite useful after you recombine and cast a quick breath to slow enemies then proceed to attack with fire and ice. The only skill that's ignored till level 18 or so is Twin Strike because it's heavily end-game oriented, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's obvious you're going to level whatever gives you the most early game advantage sooner than anything else. For Gemini that is STATS, and it comes at a price as well. He is virtually the same as a creep with more health pre lv 6 with an escape.
The only thing hurting his viability as of now is the dual channel nerf as well as maybe his chasing potential during mid game. He is fine in terms of concept and playability.
Last edited by starkey444; 04-08-2012 at 05:40 AM.
Main form and ultimate form are only casually linked by the fact that you share stats and ms between the forms, else you're playing a completely different hero with only superficial relations to actual Gemini.
Last edited by `11411181; 04-08-2012 at 05:43 AM.
I like Gemini, often an underrated hero who has amazing burst potential that doesn't feel cheap like a certain other melee AGI hero because it's harder and actually takes some skill to fully utilize upon a target (or multiple since most skills on Gemini are AoE).
Personally the biggest issue I have with Gemini early game is sustaining mana, with the 20% reduced STR and INT when you ult, you are extremely fragile and often unlikely to be able to fully combo your abilities so the ult is often better picked up at Lv9+ (personally) because maxing breath and fang first is simply more reliable. Bottle and other items also can't be used (from Gemini) while you are split which is a small annoyance and proc items don't even work at all so you shouldn't be spending much time if any at all auto-attacking with them if you have Nullfire or anything like it mid/late game.
I've mentioned the burst before and I'm still surprised not many has caught on (I've seen a few Gemini's in game but very rarely and they more or less never utilize the burst, they just farm and try to late game carry as if they were SW, without the amazing ult to get assists/kills with); Breath does 300 damage (240 up front, 60 in dot) with a 30% slow in normal form, in split each wolf does ~150 each with their separate breaths. That's 600 damage alone. But it doesn't even end there, Twin Fang does 300 damage with a 2sec stun however while split, the stun becomes a single target leap for each wolf that deals 160 damage with a 1sec stun each. That's another 620 damage. Gemini has 1200+ potential magic damage burst at lv9 and as it has both stuns and slows in it, getting hits in shouldn't be that hard.
However, that's the thing. It is hard. It's a lengthy combo that requires perfection, you can't shift-queue any of it, you need to move the wolves properly when split to ensure they can follow each other up and once they are done they can't be interrupted while you channel back. But if you succeed and re-combine you can followup with a second combo wave for up to 1800(!) total damage from skills alone (due to the 14sec cd's this is unlikely to happen in any decent game though and the target SHOULD be dead before then anyway).
This leads to another problem though; balancing Gemini when he has this burst is complicated. It's incredibly easy to snowball Gemini like he was on initial release, and then people didn't care about the burst just like they don't now. But S2 and others KNOW Gemini has that burst, even if people ignore it so what can they do? You could say they pigeonholed themselves into that position but honestly, I don't think it's S2's fault that people refuse to utilize Gemini's skillset like it was most likely intended rather than think he's a right click auto-farm carry because of the passive just because it worked due to the crazy good ult (which is nowhere as crazy now).
Stat spam on Gemini is a thing of the past and people need to wake up and realize that. Use his Q and W to full potential then carry it mid/late with the passive with items such as Nullfire (incredibly good against Magebane/Amun-Ra!), Savage Mace or maybe even items such as Brutalizer or Charged Hammer.
Last edited by Reimu; 04-08-2012 at 06:12 AM.
There was a signature here.
There are also countless examples of other heros that prioritize stats over skills especially early on.
Last edited by starkey444; 04-08-2012 at 06:20 AM.
"It's almost like saying Pyro has a design flaw that his damaging skills encourage him to be a burst nuker but his passive wants him to build on carry potential, and that both can not be taken advantage of at the same time"
No actually, it's nothing like that - because Pyromancer's passive encourages you to level his skills and play him like a burst nuker and takes further advantage from doing that. Gemini's does not because you gain no benefit when in ult form from anything to do with levelling the skills.
There are not "countless" examples of heroes levelling stats over skills, and every single one of them undoubtedly have design flaws because levelling stats implies the skill is subpar to a 185g item.
This is a pointless argument; you're not even on the same page in regards to what a design flaw is.
Last edited by `11411181; 04-08-2012 at 06:32 AM.
Actually Gemini is an example of great design, where stats aren't a filler to get to level 25, but are utilized much earlier. He is by far the best designed hero in the genre with a multitude of ways to play him depending on the skill-level of the player that picks him and the bracket he is being utilized in. Saying he is bad design is a sign of ignorance and just shows a lack of understanding of how the hero can be played. All his skills serve a purpose, including stats. And they can serve this purpose in different parts of the game depending on how you want to play him. There's no 1 way of skilling him, which is the case of 90% of heroes. Of course, I will skill him in one way, because I mastered that way of playing him and have a whopping 65% winrate over the course of 150 games, but that's just me. I would welcome a buff, since I would like to be playing him in organized games aswell, and as of now I have a hard time convincing my teammates to do so.
Double-channel nerf should be removed.