rampage remake

[[FLQ]Streepe]

See next post for original post.

So lately there's been a lot of discussion in the balance forum about rampage. If not everyone agree if he's OP or UP, most people seem to agree that he's not "balanced". By that I mean that be it either competitive or casual (pub if you prefer) he has something people want fixed.

He's balanced in the fact that he's doing his job properly and the numbers are right. Buffing him would making him totally break casual and nerfing him would destroy his chances to ever see competitive gameplay(if there is).

What I hope to achieve here? Make things move! Balancing was getting sluggish even since he's UP/OP at the same time. Since suggestions, even if I deeply think they would deserve a place there, are best avoided over there I came here hoping I could resume what was started.

So here is my idea on how to fix him:

Rampage possible rework

Before anything I want to remind you that what I suggest are direct mechanical changes. Unless precisely stated I won't adress possible number tweak the changes I suggest may create. This doesn't mean in any way that numbers should remain as they are but rather that it is a rework and no matter how much I try I doubt I can achieve a proper balancing. I leave that to S2 to do that if they ever adopt my idea.

Ok, according to what I know and I've read the main problem in pub play is that he charge you from base and then start comboing you to death even if it means diving. The thing right now is that you can do that ALONE. Charging from base is the biggest issue with pub play as far as I know and in comp it is exactly the necessity for such strategy that make it fails.

Let's start by fixing the pub part. A simple damage reduction on the skill would be enough to make thing better. Being unable to take the enemy alone would make it too much risk to start it from your base.

I'll use this nerf to put a buff for comp scene. Since ramp lack team fight utility we'll make the lost portion affect an AoE.

In the end having the original damage lowered to ~75% and put a ~15% in AoE seems fair. Having 2 additional heroes nearby would result in a total of 105% damage and a maximum of 135% with the 5 heroes in the zone. I've kept the damage low but for a good reason.

Just putting damage in AoE won't be enough to make it worth competitive. We need to add a CC. At this point the hero is still "balanced". For that reason I'll do the following:

Remove the activable slow on his second skill and put it on the AoE. Since the AoE is expected to have a much bigger range this will impact much more on the enemy team during team fight. Since I expect the AoE to be some kind of shockwave I would also add a minor knockback. This is just personal taste. It could be slow, knockback or both.

The charge is now full of effects and way too important. To make out for that we need to remove something. The speed linger seems a good candidate but I want to keep it so I'm moving it to his second skill in a new form.

I would give his second skill a ghost marcher type active effect.

Stoping this here wouldn't be bad but would like to modify him furthermore for teamplay.

An energizer type active effect would be even better. Each of the affected heroes would recieve a copy of rampage passive.
Not only this would make the skill more team fight worthy but it would also make more sense with the theme of the skill: might of the HERD.

As for his 2 other skills I would leave them as is. I consider modifications I suggested already adress the hero issues.

edit: If it is unclear in my changes, most of them are meant to encourage teamplay. Since one big problem when playing against rampage is proper communication and cooperation in the team, having the enemy team face the same problem would make things fair.

On a final note I would like to thanks you for your time and to excuse my possibly poor english as it is not my main language.

[[FLQ]Streepe]

I had a reply on balance forum about the colors. I'm not only using them to split my text but also to keep interest for those who hate walls of text.

Here a copy with no color.

So lately there's been a lot of discussion in the balance forum about rampage.If not everyone agree if he's OP or UP, most people seem to agree that he's not "balanced". By that I mean that be it either competitive or casual (pub if you prefer) he has something people want fixed.

He's balanced in the fact that he's doing his job properly and the numbers are right. Buffing him would making him totally break casual and nerfing him would destroy his chances to ever see competitive gameplay(if there is).

What I hope to achieve here? Make things move! Balancing was getting sluggish even since he's UP/OP at the same time. Since suggestions, even if I deeply think they would deserve a place there, are best avoided over there I came here hoping I could resume what was started.


So here is my idea on how to fix him:

Rampage possible rework

Before anything I want to remind you that what I suggest are direct mechanical changes. Unless precisely stated I won't adress possible number tweak the changes I suggest may create. This doesn't mean in any way that numbers should remain as they are but rather that it is a rework and no matter how much I try I doubt I can achieve a proper balancing. I leave that to S2 to do that if they ever adopt my idea.

Ok, according to what I know and I've read the main problem in pub play is that he charge you from base and then start comboing you to death even if it means diving. The thing right now is that you can do that ALONE. Charging from base is the biggest issue with pub play as far as I know and in comp it is exactly the necessity for such strategy that make it fails.

Let's start by fixing the pub part. A simple damage reduction on the skill would be enough to make thing better. Being unable to take the enemy alone would make it too much risk to start it from your base.
I'll use this nerf to put a buff for comp scene. Since ramp lack team fight utility we'll make the lost portion affect an AoE.

In the end having the original damage lowered to ~75% and put a ~15% in AoE seems fair. Having 2 additional heroes nearby would result in a total of 105% damage and a maximum of 135% with the 5 heroes in the zone. I've kept the damage low but for a good reason.

Just putting damage in AoE won't be enough to make it worth competitive. We need to add a CC. At this point the hero is still "balanced". For that reason I'll do the following:

Remove the activable slow on his second skill and put it on the AoE. Since the AoE is expected to have a much bigger range this will impact much more on the enemy team during team fight. Since I expect the AoE to be some kind of shockwave I would also add a minor knockback. This is just personal taste. It could be slow, knockback or both.

The charge is now full of effects and way too important. To make out for that we need to remove something. There's 2 things left on the charge that could be removed: magic immunity and speed boost linger. Since I don't like the idea to remove just to remove I would like to move 1 of those onto another skill instead of just deleting it.

Since I don't like the idea of giving him an activable magic immunity I would instead give his second skill a ghost marcher type active effect. (since it wasn't clear when I posted in balance, magic immune as it is right now on his first skill remain the same)
Stoping this here wouldn't be bad I think it is still not enough for competitive gameplay.

An energizer type active effect would be even better. Each of the affected heroes would recieve a copy of rampage passive.

Not only this would make the skill more team fight worthy but it would also make more sense with the theme of the skill: might of the HERD.
As for his 2 other skills I would leave them as is. I consider modifications I suggested already adress the hero issues.


edit: If it is unclear in my changes, most of them are meant to encourage teamplay. Since one big problem when playing against rampage is proper communication and cooperation in the team, having the enemy team face the same problem would make things fair.

On a final note I would like to thanks you for your time and to excuse my possibly poor english as it is not my main language.
__________________

[[TK0]Vascariz]

Firstly, please even with the coloured text, break up the paragraphs and add in headings. It's a clusterf*ck to read.

I would say this suggestion is not doing the Balance thread any justice. I strongly suggest you read through the thread and fix up your suggestions.

A simple damage reduction on the skill would be enough to make thing better.
In the end having the original damage lowered to ~75% and put a ~15% in AoE seems fair.

As I stated in the Balance thread, this is a decent attempt at reducing the damage component of his charge and increasing it's utility. However, there are much better suggestions in that thread.

Also, as mentioned numerous times in the Balance thread it does not get around the issue of his charge being easily negated by team awareness and wards. This is the main issue in competitive play which you have not addressed.

Interesting suggestions from the Balance thread has been to add in tree-walking or waypoints.

Remove the activable slow on his second skill and put it on the AoE. Since the AoE is expected to have a much bigger range this will impact much more on the enemy team during team fight.

Since I don't like the idea of giving him an activable magic immunity I would instead give his second skill a ghost marcher type active effect. (since it wasn't clear when I posted in balance, magic immune as it is right now on his first skill remain the same)

An energizer type active effect would be even better. Each of the affected heroes would recieve a copy of rampage passive.

You should just remove the activable magic immunity bit. It's just distracting and meaningless.

Basically you want to emphasise the AoE aspect of his second skill, by either buffing allied heroes or debuffing enemy heroes.

As far as I can see, your entire thread could be reduced to one sentence:

Rampage needs more utility and less damage but I have no idea how to implement this so I'm going to throw out vague suggestions.

[[FLQ]Streepe]

Got your coffee when you wrote your post? All you say seems so biased by your "i hate anything you can say" mood.
I'll give some answer anyway, since even if I don't like how you say it some of it could help me clarify a few points.

Firstly, please even with the coloured text, break up the paragraphs and add in headings. It's a clusterf*ck to read.

I would say this suggestion is not doing the Balance thread any justice. I strongly suggest you read through the thread and fix up your suggestions.

Well, I understand you might not like the colored version, and maybe I'll try to do something. But wow, you being a big as***le for no reason. How do I "not do the Balance thread any justice" ? This thread is unrelated to any people or other forum, subforum expect that I stated what was happening in the balance subforum motivated me to start this thread.

And even IF I would involve anyone else than me, how do it even do you bad? I feel like I cracked a match and you just go around shouting "OMG, he's setting fire to my house!!!!".

As I stated in the Balance thread, this is a decent attempt at reducing the damage component of his charge and increasing it's utility. However, there are much better suggestions in that thread.

Also, as mentioned numerous times in the Balance thread it does not get around the issue of his charge being easily negated by team awareness and wards. This is the main issue in competitive play which you have not addressed.

Interesting suggestions from the Balance thread has been to add in tree-walking or waypoints.

I love how you know say "decent attempt" but later say I have no idea what I'm doing. And you say much better suggestions? I remember those you stated and I don't think they 're "much better". What I tried to do is to punish a bad strategy. Charge from base? sure, but it wont work without some teamwork since you can't combo you opponent alone. You're right when you say it doesn't get around the issue of team awareness and ward but I rather discourage player from using such strategy. You can easily charge from lane and achieve way more.
tree-walking and waypoints are noobfixes. It encourage you to use a strategy you shouldn't use.

For example: a player come to the forum complaining that he love to use nymp but whenever he ult behind his ennemy they see the animation and get ready for him to appear. He suggest removing the animation for the enemy.
In that case Most people will reply saying : L2P, you dont port right behind them.

tree-walking and waypoints feel pretty much the same.

You should just remove the activable magic immunity bit. It's just distracting and meaningless.

Maybe. Will see what I can do.

Basically you want to emphasise the AoE aspect of his second skill, by either buffing allied heroes or debuffing enemy heroes.

No, just buffing allies(and/or self).

As far as I can see, your entire thread could be reduced to one sentence:

Rampage needs more utility and less damage but I have no idea how to implement this so I'm going to throw out vague suggestions.

You're just being mean for no reason there.
I could also reduce your post to 1 sentence: You hate me because I dare to use colors.
I'm not throwing random suggestions. This is some ideas that I think could really fix the issues with the hero. I'm open to other suggestions or variations but so far I'm the only 1 who proposed something bigger. Most fixes suggested by others are minor and I think this is what make mines seems vague.
I'm not that great with explanation so if really something seems stupid you can ask for clarification instead of being a b***h.

[[FLQ]Streepe]

OK I've done some editing following my friend Vascariz suggestions.

I'll also post a really more clear version of my build later today(or this week, I can be really lazy sometimes).

I also suggest people to bring their own suggestions. As reflected in my poll, I'm not saying my idea is THE IDEA. There could be other possible reworks and this thread is meant to find a solution to the issues with rampage and not to put my personal rework in highlight.