"makes Fayde one of the best initiating heroes with negligible counters."
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I think many of the personal issues stemming from being dominated by Fayde and even other irritating, skill-less heroes like EW (though having good knowledge of positioning on the hero is key) or Ra is the inherent fact that they have a relatively low skill ceiling with relatively high rewards. Valkyrie, DW, DR, Sil, Oph, etc. don't engender as much frustration because they actually require a relatively high amount of skill to dominate with (or they require exploiting player stupidity -- i.e., standing in a single place for excessive amounts of time while a DW or Valk is missing from the map).
If it took more skill/investment to get abilities off (like making EW's arrow a skillshot -- possibly even increasing it's effects for landing it if it was a skillshot, or giving Fayde slightly higher cast times/making her burning shadow's wave effect travel slower, or....), then these issues would pop up much less frequently. The heroes might still be too powerful (as is arguably the case with Valk/Sil), but the nerfs to the heroes would still be appreciable and increasing the skill required to be successful would be extremely desireable.
If there's one thing that is almost universally agreed upon, it's that "giving high rewards for skill and nothing for a lack of it" is better design than "giving good rewards, regardless of skill." Balance must still be attained, but allowing for such a design paradigm is ultimately what is looked for in making the game interesting and rewarding.
I've decided to make a sig. I hope you're enjoying it.
Additionally, this will also solve the problem of Fog blanking (or whatever, it is called). For example, an enemy target was clicked for Burning Shadows stun, he walked up a cliff into the fog. Fayde was just about to land her Burning Shadows on him, now she just stands there like a brainless monkey until further commands are issued. She won't even try to follow him.
Thus, in a way, it will improve on both aspects but definitely work towards increasing her risks for such high rewards.
I think that Fayde is exactly where she needs to be right now. A brilliant pick-up at times, decent other times, and horrible every now and then.
While Treewalking may be awesome, there are a number of heroes who lessen the effect - for example Tundra (provided a Bound Eye or Counterwards are nearby) or Pestilence.
You'd be surprised at how well a Pestilence (maybe even dual lane with Pesti?) works mid against Fayde. You ult her with Pesti, and you know exactly what she's up to - and her ultimate gets practically nullified.
While it is true that Fayde is exceptionally good among the invisible heroes at working "around" the revelation, I don't think this is a problem. Counterwards & Bound Eyes are still very effective against her, but if you move smart and act carefully you can still initiate well.
That said, she has weaknesses besides the good ol' "invis seeing" - anything with a PK and a high burst can kill her very quickly. - Never forget that she is, in fact, very squishy. She has a good stun and a nice ult to escape with in emergenices, but a Pebbles, Deadwood or Pyromancer with PK will still hurt as hell.
as far as pubs go, fayde is way too powerful. Easily used, and almost impossible to counter.
-Pesti will not be able to ult fayde before she can invis
-bh wont be able to see her with his passive until its too late if ever.
-rampage cant always charge her b4 ulti
-berzerker, marked for death not an option
-scout invis wards, or any ward of rev, will not stop her if she stays in trees
-TB could ult if u know shes in the trees next to u and could probably stop her, but thats highly situational
-Tundra could get an eye and spend all of his time trying to find fayde, but its way too much time/gold spent to effectively locate and kill fayde
-bound eye wont work if players are trying to farm and the holder of the eye isnt ALWAYS next to them...making the farming carries easy targets.
-puzzlebox...same as eye
-dust almost never works against fayde for obvious reasons
These are most of the counters i can think of and none of them are very effective against a fayde that knows what they are doing.
For most pub games she can easily win the game single handedly, unless the enemy uses hero picks/alot of gold and time to counter just 1 hero, which in the end can throw the game just as much as letting her run free.
Also, Pestilence mid believe it or not is actually quite under-estimated, and really is a damn scary counter to Fayde mid. Pestilence can out-rune control Fayde (I believe he has something like 504 movespeed with Steams and Flight, 511 with Plated Greaves), and will not die to any Fayde gank attempts early on because of his natural health pool + Steams pickup; an early Portal Key+bottle+Steams along with the level advantage can show some surprisingly effective results with a Pest mid.
I don't know what this actually has to do with balance, but just putting that out there.
Preston, while I see what you are saying, you have the following wrong assumptions:
(1) Rune wars is most significant pre-level 6, Pestilence can not have level 4 flight pre-level 6 . Although I do get your point, I believe Pestilence should still win most rune races, if Fayde doesn't level deep shadows over cull.
(2) A sane Fayde would never look to solo-gank a near full-hp Pestilence in mid-lane, she would either try to gank other lanes with squishy support or carry, or gank Pestilence mid with assistance from allies.
Other than that, I agree with you, Pestilence is under-appreciated, but that does not mean that Fayde is not a problem currently. Her light-housing ability along with having an easy to lane 2.5 seconds AOE stun, and a superior magic AOE slow makes her incredibly strong. And had there not been so much power-creeping going around, she would actually be considered over-powered.
I think it is time to either bring those 90 heroes up to the current power level of the ~10, or bring those ~10 heroes down. Which one is easier and less time-consuming?
I mean, I agree with the fact that in pubs she is overpowered. No doubt about it in my mind.
The simple fact is, stealth heroes are a METRIC **** TON easier to play than they are to counter. Now add treewalking and clearsight and it's even harder to counter in a pub.
But it's different in comp play apparently. I bet she'll swing into favor soon, and starting being picked competitively a lot. But as of right now.. no.
DogKaiser should not be solely dependent on Competitive players feedback for balance, he plays the game as well and is very capable of noticing what is too strong and what isn't. I think he would admit that Fayde has a little too much utility at the moment.
To top it off Tundra just plain counters Fayde with his bird and a boundeye, making it not really viable to pick her as counter-intel. To make Fayde viable you'd pretty much have to ban/make sure Tundra isn't in play (and again if Tundra was available in the draft you might as well just have picked him), and even without Tundra on the field there are still more solid picks for intel/initiation like Pharoah, who can still scout efficiently with rockets, again is a better and tankier solo pick, and can initiate/counter-initiate like a beast. The only thing Fayde has over these two heroes is a somewhat dependable linestun (which can be great especially with a Portal Key), but in general I don't think it's a strong enough reason to warrant picking her as a dependable pick over Tundra/Pharoah or other melee initiators (Magmus/Kraken/Cthulu etc.).
I do agree that Fayde has a little too much utility at the moment, but this is for the most part kept in check with her being a really squishy melee on top of it, which is why I would personally say it's not 'imbalanced' but borderline acceptable. (going back to Tundra, he's the exact same way, a little too much utility packed into one hero, which is what makes him viable)
Maybe she'll be 'considered' more often in the future as she can be situationally great, but besides Magebane hard-countering I really doubt she'll ever be picked up consistently in a 'flavor of the month' way, the main thing that keeps her from being a truly dependable pick is that she's a squishy melee hero, it's hard to dependably fit one of those in a lineup regardless of whatever meta-game strats are being favored.
Not that I actually play at a competitive level or anything.. but I have played Fayde to death and have used her in so many different/unorthodox strategies/situations, and it's just the main factor that's always going to keep her from being an absolutely strong pick is she's a squishy melee hero and that's never going to change (at least without some retarded-ass reworks coming into play ).
Last edited by PrestonLee; 04-22-2012 at 05:01 PM.
She getting picked even when Magebane is not picked by the opponent team, in the competitive scene. I think Frenetic Array has finally realized her potential
Drop a sentry next to your obs ward watching the rune / river, and keep a ward watching the enemy tower so you can see anyone tping in.
Oh look, fayde literally cannot do anything to gank your lane now, congrats on making a hero that is like any other ganker useless via proper warding.
Fayde excels in pubs for the same reason that rampage does in that tmmers do not properly ward, rarely will you see a ward on anything other than the runes or blocking a pull camp in 95% of tmm games allowing heroes like fayde to stomp, her viability should NOT be nerfed due to players not properly understanding how to easily counter her.
Oh come on! Fayde is perfectly fine where she is right now. Her ulti has an awful duration at rank one, and she drops off in effectiveness by the time she gets rank three. Fayde isn't some sort of wizard from the nether realm because she can kill you through trees, as there are MANY ganking heroes that don't give a single **** about trees. What about Tundra? Tundra fills a lot of the niches she's picked for. Pyro can kill trees to get to you, or simply kill you while standing behind the trees. Ra can just whoopsie doo through the tree line and kill you. Flint can just sit back and Flare you/ulti you. Pebbles can stun you through trees (his stun really is powerful by itself). Valkyrie can leap over trees, get vision from her javelin (which is also strong as ****), and can go invisible with her ulti. The fact is is the Fayde has the leisure of strolling through trees and being a walking light tower, but she has to get close to someone to do anything, and she has no mobility spell (minus her ulti).
Fayde is fine as is. She might be a little on the strong side, but being strong does not equate to being over powered, and definitely does not equate to needing a nerf. If she ever does recieve a nerf, then Pebbles and Valkyrie should as well.
This is how ALL ARTS devs balance their games.
And THIS is how you shut down Pimp Slayer