[2.5.17] Fayde

[[f13]`11411181]

"makes Fayde one of the best initiating heroes with negligible counters."

Brought to you live from TMM, the home of competitive HoN.

[PlayeroJ]

I also think that she already has big weaknesses in that she doesn't have that much freedom on how you are going to lane her, she is most of the time really squishy throughout the whole game and especially during her laning she can be shut down. Her real big strength is that she punishes late-game teams that don't farm/lane smart or don't play good teamwork. Her effectiveness is also greatly reduced by any push oriented line-up or by the presence of any big healers, which is why she is not much of a good pick before last pick-slot.

Actually with the stun change from 1/1.5/2/2.5 -> 1.6/1.9/2.2/2.5 I think the problem you're referring to is almost non-existent. Fayde has a great lvl 1 AoE stun plus more AoE damage to boot. It's like a laning pyro that is more capable of initiating with a stun, and less mana dependent.

[`Krigsbest]

This hero is OP and too easily mastered.

[Alten]

I think many of the personal issues stemming from being dominated by Fayde and even other irritating, skill-less heroes like EW (though having good knowledge of positioning on the hero is key) or Ra is the inherent fact that they have a relatively low skill ceiling with relatively high rewards. Valkyrie, DW, DR, Sil, Oph, etc. don't engender as much frustration because they actually require a relatively high amount of skill to dominate with (or they require exploiting player stupidity -- i.e., standing in a single place for excessive amounts of time while a DW or Valk is missing from the map).

If it took more skill/investment to get abilities off (like making EW's arrow a skillshot -- possibly even increasing it's effects for landing it if it was a skillshot, or giving Fayde slightly higher cast times/making her burning shadow's wave effect travel slower, or....), then these issues would pop up much less frequently. The heroes might still be too powerful (as is arguably the case with Valk/Sil), but the nerfs to the heroes would still be appreciable and increasing the skill required to be successful would be extremely desireable.

If there's one thing that is almost universally agreed upon, it's that "giving high rewards for skill and nothing for a lack of it" is better design than "giving good rewards, regardless of skill." Balance must still be attained, but allowing for such a design paradigm is ultimately what is looked for in making the game interesting and rewarding.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

I think many of the personal issues stemming from being dominated by Fayde and even other irritating, skill-less heroes like EW (though having good knowledge of positioning on the hero is key) or Ra is the inherent fact that they have a relatively low skill ceiling with relatively high rewards. Valkyrie, DW, DR, Sil, Oph, etc. don't engender as much frustration because they actually require a relatively high amount of skill to dominate with (or they require exploiting player stupidity -- i.e., standing in a single place for excessive amounts of time while a DW or Valk is missing from the map).

If it took more skill/investment to get abilities off (like making EW's arrow a skillshot -- possibly even increasing it's effects for landing it if it was a skillshot, or giving Fayde slightly higher cast times/making her burning shadow's wave effect travel slower, or....), then these issues would pop up much less frequently. The heroes might still be too powerful (as is arguably the case with Valk/Sil), but the nerfs to the heroes would still be appreciable and increasing the skill required to be successful would be extremely desireable.

If there's one thing that is almost universally agreed upon, it's that "giving high rewards for skill and nothing for a lack of it" is better design than "giving good rewards, regardless of skill." Balance must still be attained, but allowing for such a design paradigm is ultimately what is looked for in making the game interesting and rewarding.

A very simple solution has been brought up before by my clan-mate, foxmindedguy. He suggested that unit-targettability should be removed from all AOE ground-targetable spells (this includes and is not limited to Burning Shadows, Grave Yard, Lava Surge, Fissure etc etc). This allows for opposing players to have a chance of dodging said AOE spells without it tracing their every move.

Additionally, this will also solve the problem of Fog blanking (or whatever, it is called). For example, an enemy target was clicked for Burning Shadows stun, he walked up a cliff into the fog. Fayde was just about to land her Burning Shadows on him, now she just stands there like a brainless monkey until further commands are issued. She won't even try to follow him.

Thus, in a way, it will improve on both aspects but definitely work towards increasing her risks for such high rewards.

[Endroil]

I think that Fayde is exactly where she needs to be right now. A brilliant pick-up at times, decent other times, and horrible every now and then.

While Treewalking may be awesome, there are a number of heroes who lessen the effect - for example Tundra (provided a Bound Eye or Counterwards are nearby) or Pestilence.

You'd be surprised at how well a Pestilence (maybe even dual lane with Pesti?) works mid against Fayde. You ult her with Pesti, and you know exactly what she's up to - and her ultimate gets practically nullified.

While it is true that Fayde is exceptionally good among the invisible heroes at working "around" the revelation, I don't think this is a problem. Counterwards & Bound Eyes are still very effective against her, but if you move smart and act carefully you can still initiate well.

That said, she has weaknesses besides the good ol' "invis seeing" - anything with a PK and a high burst can kill her very quickly. - Never forget that she is, in fact, very squishy. She has a good stun and a nice ult to escape with in emergenices, but a Pebbles, Deadwood or Pyromancer with PK will still hurt as hell.

[ploytoy]

as far as pubs go, fayde is way too powerful. Easily used, and almost impossible to counter.

-Pesti will not be able to ult fayde before she can invis
-ditto arachna
-bh wont be able to see her with his passive until its too late if ever.
-rampage cant always charge her b4 ulti
-berzerker, marked for death not an option
-scout invis wards, or any ward of rev, will not stop her if she stays in trees
-TB could ult if u know shes in the trees next to u and could probably stop her, but thats highly situational
-Tundra could get an eye and spend all of his time trying to find fayde, but its way too much time/gold spent to effectively locate and kill fayde
-bound eye wont work if players are trying to farm and the holder of the eye isnt ALWAYS next to them...making the farming carries easy targets.
-puzzlebox...same as eye
-dust almost never works against fayde for obvious reasons

These are most of the counters i can think of and none of them are very effective against a fayde that knows what they are doing.

For most pub games she can easily win the game single handedly, unless the enemy uses hero picks/alot of gold and time to counter just 1 hero, which in the end can throw the game just as much as letting her run free.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

You'd be surprised at how well a Pestilence (maybe even dual lane with Pesti?) works mid against Fayde. You ult her with Pesti, and you know exactly what she's up to - and her ultimate gets practically nullified.

And you will be surprised when Pestilence Ultimate gets nullified, if the opposing Fayde is smart about it.

Click here to see how

[PrestonLee]

And you will be surprised when Pestilence Ultimate gets nullified, if the opposing Fayde is smart about it.

Click here to see how

true, but that doesn't really do much. if a spammable ult forces you to waste/use your 90 second cooldown early, I'd say it was in Pestilence's advantage.

Also, Pestilence mid believe it or not is actually quite under-estimated, and really is a damn scary counter to Fayde mid. Pestilence can out-rune control Fayde (I believe he has something like 504 movespeed with Steams and Flight, 511 with Plated Greaves), and will not die to any Fayde gank attempts early on because of his natural health pool + Steams pickup; an early Portal Key+bottle+Steams along with the level advantage can show some surprisingly effective results with a Pest mid.

I don't know what this actually has to do with balance, but just putting that out there.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

Preston, while I see what you are saying, you have the following wrong assumptions:
(1) Rune wars is most significant pre-level 6, Pestilence can not have level 4 flight pre-level 6 . Although I do get your point, I believe Pestilence should still win most rune races, if Fayde doesn't level deep shadows over cull.
(2) A sane Fayde would never look to solo-gank a near full-hp Pestilence in mid-lane, she would either try to gank other lanes with squishy support or carry, or gank Pestilence mid with assistance from allies.

Other than that, I agree with you, Pestilence is under-appreciated, but that does not mean that Fayde is not a problem currently. Her light-housing ability along with having an easy to lane 2.5 seconds AOE stun, and a superior magic AOE slow makes her incredibly strong. And had there not been so much power-creeping going around, she would actually be considered over-powered.

[PrestonLee]

And had there not been so much power-creeping going around, she would actually be considered over-powered.

I'd definitely agree with this, but ya know, this is the whole problem. You can't really call Fayde 'overpowered' when 10+ other heroes are even worse than she currently is. In comparison she's balanced D;

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

I'd definitely agree with this, but ya know, this is the whole problem. You can't really call Fayde 'overpowered' when 10+ other heroes are even worse than she currently is. In comparison she's balanced D;

In comparison to those 10 heroes, she's balanced or underpowered. In comparison to the remaining ~90, she is overpowered.

I think it is time to either bring those 90 heroes up to the current power level of the ~10, or bring those ~10 heroes down. Which one is easier and less time-consuming?

[Danold]

In comparison to those 10 heroes, she's balanced or underpowered. In comparison to the remaining ~90, she is overpowered.

I think it is time to either bring those 90 heroes up to the current power level of the ~10, or bring those ~10 heroes down. Which one is easier and less time-consuming?

Are we talking about competitive play? Or what? It seems that comp players don't favor her much at all. She has seen some play, but I could think of 20+ with more ban/play.

I mean, I agree with the fact that in pubs she is overpowered. No doubt about it in my mind.

The simple fact is, stealth heroes are a METRIC **** TON easier to play than they are to counter. Now add treewalking and clearsight and it's even harder to counter in a pub.

But it's different in comp play apparently. I bet she'll swing into favor soon, and starting being picked competitively a lot. But as of right now.. no.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

I bet she'll swing into favor soon, and start being picked competitively a lot. But as of right now.. no.

I predict the same as well. I just wanted to prevent her true-potential being realized and then her being picked more often than not. Much like how Electrician was, no one played him. Everyone thought he was a pub hero and then one day he got picked in the competitive scene, where his shield was abused and BAM, they completely reworked his shield.

DogKaiser should not be solely dependent on Competitive players feedback for balance, he plays the game as well and is very capable of noticing what is too strong and what isn't. I think he would admit that Fayde has a little too much utility at the moment.

[PrestonLee]

I predict the same as well. I just wanted to prevent her true-potential being realized and then her being picked more often than not.
..

I think he would admit that Fayde has a little too much utility at the moment.

I personally don't think she will swing into favor in competitive play anytime soon, mostly because she's simply completely outclassed by Tundra in terms of what she offers. If you wanted that team vision factor you would always aim for a Tundra pick as his clearvision is much more reliable, he has better solo laning capabilities, and he isn't limited to ultimate cooldowns for his bird scouting utility. His charge also gives a team attack-speed bonus factor, which arguably makes him better for anti-carry potential (of course on top of his ultimate).

To top it off Tundra just plain counters Fayde with his bird and a boundeye, making it not really viable to pick her as counter-intel. To make Fayde viable you'd pretty much have to ban/make sure Tundra isn't in play (and again if Tundra was available in the draft you might as well just have picked him), and even without Tundra on the field there are still more solid picks for intel/initiation like Pharoah, who can still scout efficiently with rockets, again is a better and tankier solo pick, and can initiate/counter-initiate like a beast. The only thing Fayde has over these two heroes is a somewhat dependable linestun (which can be great especially with a Portal Key), but in general I don't think it's a strong enough reason to warrant picking her as a dependable pick over Tundra/Pharoah or other melee initiators (Magmus/Kraken/Cthulu etc.).

I do agree that Fayde has a little too much utility at the moment, but this is for the most part kept in check with her being a really squishy melee on top of it, which is why I would personally say it's not 'imbalanced' but borderline acceptable. (going back to Tundra, he's the exact same way, a little too much utility packed into one hero, which is what makes him viable)

Maybe she'll be 'considered' more often in the future as she can be situationally great, but besides Magebane hard-countering I really doubt she'll ever be picked up consistently in a 'flavor of the month' way, the main thing that keeps her from being a truly dependable pick is that she's a squishy melee hero, it's hard to dependably fit one of those in a lineup regardless of whatever meta-game strats are being favored.

Not that I actually play at a competitive level or anything.. but I have played Fayde to death and have used her in so many different/unorthodox strategies/situations, and it's just the main factor that's always going to keep her from being an absolutely strong pick is she's a squishy melee hero and that's never going to change (at least without some retarded-ass reworks coming into play ).

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

She getting picked even when Magebane is not picked by the opponent team, in the competitive scene. I think Frenetic Array has finally realized her potential

[Juicenewton]

as far as pubs go, fayde is way too powerful. Easily used, and almost impossible to counter.

-Pesti will not be able to ult fayde before she can invis
-ditto arachna
-bh wont be able to see her with his passive until its too late if ever.
-rampage cant always charge her b4 ulti
-berzerker, marked for death not an option
-scout invis wards, or any ward of rev, will not stop her if she stays in trees
-TB could ult if u know shes in the trees next to u and could probably stop her, but thats highly situational
-Tundra could get an eye and spend all of his time trying to find fayde, but its way too much time/gold spent to effectively locate and kill fayde
-bound eye wont work if players are trying to farm and the holder of the eye isnt ALWAYS next to them...making the farming carries easy targets.
-puzzlebox...same as eye
-dust almost never works against fayde for obvious reasons

These are most of the counters i can think of and none of them are very effective against a fayde that knows what they are doing.

For most pub games she can easily win the game single handedly, unless the enemy uses hero picks/alot of gold and time to counter just 1 hero, which in the end can throw the game just as much as letting her run free.

Drop a sentry next to your obs ward watching the rune / river, and keep a ward watching the enemy tower so you can see anyone tping in.

Oh look, fayde literally cannot do anything to gank your lane now, congrats on making a hero that is like any other ganker useless via proper warding.

Fayde excels in pubs for the same reason that rampage does in that tmmers do not properly ward, rarely will you see a ward on anything other than the runes or blocking a pull camp in 95% of tmm games allowing heroes like fayde to stomp, her viability should NOT be nerfed due to players not properly understanding how to easily counter her.

[[STLI]Tupimus]

Drop a sentry next to your obs ward watching the rune / river, and keep a ward watching the enemy tower so you can see anyone tping in.

Oh look, fayde literally cannot do anything to gank your lane now, congrats on making a hero that is like any other ganker useless via proper warding.

Fayde excels in pubs for the same reason that rampage does in that tmmers do not properly ward, rarely will you see a ward on anything other than the runes or blocking a pull camp in 95% of tmm games allowing heroes like fayde to stomp, her viability should NOT be nerfed due to players not properly understanding how to easily counter her.

So your solution is to practically remove two enemy supports from the game because they'd have to constantly run around dropping Revs? They wouldn't exactly have the money for both them and Observers, you know, what with low farm priority and constantly having to run around.

[skeloperch]

Oh come on! Fayde is perfectly fine where she is right now. Her ulti has an awful duration at rank one, and she drops off in effectiveness by the time she gets rank three. Fayde isn't some sort of wizard from the nether realm because she can kill you through trees, as there are MANY ganking heroes that don't give a single **** about trees. What about Tundra? Tundra fills a lot of the niches she's picked for. Pyro can kill trees to get to you, or simply kill you while standing behind the trees. Ra can just whoopsie doo through the tree line and kill you. Flint can just sit back and Flare you/ulti you. Pebbles can stun you through trees (his stun really is powerful by itself). Valkyrie can leap over trees, get vision from her javelin (which is also strong as ****), and can go invisible with her ulti. The fact is is the Fayde has the leisure of strolling through trees and being a walking light tower, but she has to get close to someone to do anything, and she has no mobility spell (minus her ulti).

Fayde is fine as is. She might be a little on the strong side, but being strong does not equate to being over powered, and definitely does not equate to needing a nerf. If she ever does recieve a nerf, then Pebbles and Valkyrie should as well.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

Fayde is fine as is. She might be a little on the strong side, but being strong does not equate to being over powered, and definitely does not equate to needing a nerf. If she ever does recieve a nerf, then Pebbles and Valkyrie should as well.

Pebbles? No.

Valkyrie? Yes, removing sight on her Javelin would be a good start.

Fayde? Yes, removing her tree walking ability would be enough (or an alternative approach would be to reduce the clear-vision to ridiculously low amount. Say 600 at all levels).