[2.5.17] Fayde

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

Fayde has seen quite a bit of competitive light recently. The hero is usually picked as a hard-counter to Magebane, known to burn almost all of his mana if mana combustion is learned.

While hard-counters are good for the game, Fayde really has none at the moment. Eyes, dust and revelation wards are common pick-ups to limit the behavior of invisible heroes in general, but Fayde is the exception to the rule.

Her tree-walking allows her to walk past these sight providers and initiate, giving minimal time to the opposition to respond. Even if the enemy are playing conservative, staying as away from the trees as possible along with having a bound eye. She can simply stay in trees to scout their position and perhaps set-up a gank on a solo lingerer whenever possible.

One possible counter I can think of is getting a Tundra on your team, making shiver scout the woods around you and perhaps Tundra having an eye. Other than that, Fayde limits the game of many supports and squishy carries. And there is very little that can be done to stop her from what she does best: set-up ganks.

I personally think that her tree-walking ability to either be removed, granted for only the first few seconds of Reflection activation (say 5 or so seconds) or learned only when she reaches level 3 of Reflection.

Even in competitive games where she has not been successful in hard-countering Magebane, she still poses a great threat and has won more competitive games than lost them. The clear-vision + tree-walking combination of her ultimate is game-changing in itself and therefore, I suggest it should be looked at.

However, these are just my opinions. You guys are entitled to your own, but share them in a civilized and constructive manner.

[[TECH]Gorb]

Approved! Please try to stick to the discussion of treewalking and/or ability combination potential (r.e. niche use(s)), and avoid making outright suggestions.

[[L2S]WiLd_LiF3]

I personally don't see the problem. Her ultimate got reworked quite awhile ago and personally I think it's fine the way it is.

[Freakybear]

I agree with the OP. Tree-Walking in itself is not problematic, neither is invisibility, nor clear-vision. The problem is when all 3 of them are merged into 1 skill.

Fayde is a ganker, who dishes out decent damage (even without codex) and her stun is among one of the bests out there. The problem with tree-walking + clear-vision + invisibility is that there is very little one could do to avoid being initiated on.

And even late game, she can simply sit in trees constantly revealing the position of enemies with only 10 seconds down-time. She has a little too much utility right now:
(1) AOE Stun
(2) AOE Mana burn
(3) AOE Slow (that goes through magic immunity, physical immunity and null-stone).
(4) Clear-Vision on 3 out of 4 spells.
(5) Tree Walking
(6) Insane amount of scouting, with tree walking and added movement speed.

Granted Bound Eye or Dust is not a complete counter to invisibility since most invising spells also grant added movement speed for escaping, but when tree-walking is added to the mix. It is just too much.

I agree with the OP's suggestion of removing the tree-walking part entirely, Fayde can function well without it, due to all the other bonuses she received in the rework.

[[GuoP]NitroS]

I agree with the OP. Tree-Walking in itself is not problematic, neither is invisibility, nor clear-vision. The problem is when all 3 of them are merged into 1 skill.

Fayde is a ganker, who dishes out decent damage (even without codex) and her stun is among one of the bests out there. The problem with tree-walking + clear-vision + invisibility is that there is very little one could do to avoid being initiated on.

And even late game, she can simply sit in trees constantly revealing the position of enemies with only 10 seconds down-time. She has a little too much utility right now:
(1) AOE Stun
(2) AOE Mana burn
(3) AOE Slow (that goes through magic immunity, physical immunity and null-stone).
(4) Clear-Vision on 3 out of 4 spells.
(5) Tree Walking
(6) Insane amount of scouting, with tree walking and added movement speed.

Granted Bound Eye or Dust is not a complete counter to invisibility since most invising spells also grant added movement speed for escaping, but when tree-walking is added to the mix. It is just too much.

I agree with the OP's suggestion of removing the tree-walking part entirely, Fayde can function well without it, due to all the other bonuses she received in the rework.

i disagree i think it is a hard hero to lane because you have to inject alot of farm into her to be useful. you cant run her in a mid like in pubs cause she is a bad solo. If anything this hero is too weak especially in the tank meta. Why lane a fayde when you can lane a kraken? and tundra also fills her role with a much safer distance.

[Alten]

I think it's well-argued that Tundra should probably be looked at, if Fayde is in need of nerfs. Besides; hero dynamics tends to make games more interesting, and a hard counter to MB in the form of Fayde is not necessarily a bad thing.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

I think it's well-argued that Tundra should probably be looked at, if Fayde is in need of nerfs. Besides; hero dynamics tends to make games more interesting, and a hard counter to MB in the form of Fayde is not necessarily a bad thing.

Yes, I encourage hard-counters. Unfortunately, Fayde herself has none (or no significant ones). Bound Eyes, Revelation Wards, Dust can not stop her from creeping over and scouting. Or perhaps initiating whenever a vulnerability arises.

Her tree-walking, in conjunction with massive Clear-vision, Invisibility and bonus movement speed is a bit too much for one skill. Chopping off tree-walking will actually leave her with some counters. Of course she can still scout, but will be punished if she positions herself badly.

Remember, Alten, I am not suggesting a nerf to Burning Shadows, but instead wanting to erase her tree-walking. This is in no way removing her hard-countering-ness. It is just to make her ability of limiting other people's behavior counterable.

[[GuoP]NitroS]

Yes, I encourage hard-counters. Unfortunately, Fayde herself has none (or no significant ones). Bound Eyes, Revelation Wards, Dust can not stop her from creeping over and scouting. Or perhaps initiating whenever a vulnerability arises.

Her tree-walking, in conjunction with massive Clear-vision, Invisibility and bonus movement speed is a bit too much for one skill. Chopping off tree-walking will actually leave her with some counters. Of course she can still scout, but will be punished if she positions herself badly.

Remember, Alten, I am not suggesting a nerf to Burning Shadows, but instead wanting to erase her tree-walking. This is in no way removing her hard-countering-ness. It is just to make her ability of limiting other people's behavior counterable.

if you erase her tree walking then she would need a major buff in another part of her skillset because even with tree walking she isnt a top tier pick. Also tundra and emerald warden and deadwood with eyes are all counters to her so its pointless saying theres no counters. Also shadowblade.

[man_guy]

Clearvision is sort of needed with tree walking as you cannot see what you're getting into until the vision is on somewhat equal terms. I would be in favor of giving her conic clear vision instead of a full circle (if the engine is capable of doing it), but I don't think Fayde is a huge problem. There are enough clearvision skills existing on other heroes to counter her sufficiently well.

[LordTroll]

I think she's FINE.

Just as context, I think every hero that relies on a skill that grants invisibility should have a secondary effect added to said invisibility spell. I mean, invisibility itself is so easy to counter. Scout, Fayde and Madman are fine heroes even if exposed, for instance, as Scout has his steroid, Fayde has her clearvision and treewalking and Madman has max movementspeed on a short cooldown.

Night Hound is the only hero hard countered by revelation, since his invisibility spell just grants invisibility... NH is the one that needs to be tweaked in regards to his ultimate in my opinion, not Fayde or the others.

[[AMAX]TinyHippo]

I think Fayde is fine. Maybe the duration on her ult at later levels could be reduced a bit though.

[`rnz`]

<-- pick this guy

[[GnJA]Good_Apollo]

I'm completely ignorant of Fayde actually being used recently in competitive games. Examples?

Night Hound is the only hero hard countered by revelation, since his invisibility spell just grants invisibility... NH is the one that needs to be tweaked in regards to his ultimate in my opinion, not Fayde or the others.

Incredibly cost efficient reveal items are what's too strong.

[[STLI]Tupimus]

I'm completely ignorant of Fayde actually being used recently in competitive games. Examples?

Incredibly cost efficient reveal items are what's too strong.

The only thing that is too strong is Eye. Dust is **** and Revs are stationary for 100g a pop.

[Tay_z0nday]

THe sad things with her is that she can gank twice as good as any others ganker...
Yet her ult cd is too low compare to ws and yet does even more...
People might say that it does less dmg but yet her others spell are so strong that she is still always able to pick up a kill...
I also think her stun is way to powerfull for the manacost and cd...
It does dmg and yet it stun for all heroes that get hit for 2.5 sec...
I think her stun should do as much dmg but having the stun reduce to 2 sec.
I would Also increase her ult cd by 15 sec...

Her stun is the same as Nerubian assasin(dota) but it got a higher duration,dmg,less manacost,much more range and cant be dodge or proc null stone... what can I say of more... Her stun is better in everyway beside they share the same cd...

Then she might not have an higher assist ratio than support and an higher kill ratio than an Hard carry...

[[YARG]Rosgath]

Fayde has seen quite a bit of competitive light recently. The hero is usually picked as a hard-counter to Magebane, known to burn almost all of his mana if mana combustion is learned.

While hard-counters are good for the game, Fayde really has none at the moment. Eyes, dust and revelation wards are common pick-ups to limit the behavior of invisible heroes in general, but Fayde is the exception to the rule.

Her tree-walking allows her to walk past these sight providers and initiate, giving minimal time to the opposition to respond. Even if the enemy are playing conservative, staying as away from the trees as possible along with having a bound eye. She can simply stay in trees to scout their position and perhaps set-up a gank on a solo lingerer whenever possible.

One possible counter I can think of is getting a Tundra on your team, making shiver scout the woods around you and perhaps Tundra having an eye. Other than that, Fayde limits the game of many supports and squishy carries. And there is very little that can be done to stop her from what she does best: set-up ganks.

I personally think that her tree-walking ability to either be removed, granted for only the first few seconds of Reflection activation (say 5 or so seconds) or learned only when she reaches level 3 of Reflection.

Even in competitive games where she has not been successful in hard-countering Magebane, she still poses a great threat and has won more competitive games than lost them. The clear-vision + tree-walking combination of her ultimate is game-changing in itself and therefore, I suggest it should be looked at.

However, these are just my opinions. You guys are entitled to your own, but share them in a civilized and constructive manner.

I would actually argue that anyone with either strong tree clearing abilities (i.e. ) or clearvision abilities (i.e. again ) are actually good counters to . Drop a rev ward then reveal the woods and you'll be able to gank her in the middle of the trees.

[PrestonLee]

The clear-vision is the main thing that needs to be addressed; 1200 clearvision is simply too much, despite it being level 3 ulti the amount of advantage you get is over the top and i'm not quite sure why it was necessary to keep it that high. the much better cooldowns and higher damage should be reason enough to skill ulti, scaling vision really wasn't necessary imo.

consider further lowering the clearvision on it, if it must scale then trying 800/900/1000 radius sounds like a decent direction to start at.

taking out tree-walking puts Fayde back in dumpster-realm as this is the entire reason to pick her over other gankers (the extreme mobility she has combined with being harder to detect). without it she's just another nighthound/scout (with invis on a much larger cooldown) catered toward ganking and gets countered by simply having a boundeye (ie borderline useless).

also keep in mind though that her main strength that makes her even remotely viable in higher level play right now is that vision, without it she's just another melee ganker that is inevitably outclassed by pebbles. we want to keep the traits of a hero that make her viable and encourage variety in picks/team setups, not nerf her into a position where she isn't being picked at all over other heroes because certain aspects were deemed 'overpowered'

viable =/= overpowered (or at least it shouldn't be), be sure whatever suggestions made don't throw her back into garbage-tier like she used to be at.

i've said it a million times in this forum in the past, but baby steps. i'd say fayde as at a pretty comfortable spot in usability right now and her clear vision utility is the only thing that is slightly over the top.

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

Alright Preston, do you think 600 / 700 / 800 clear-vision would be better suited? Or would you prefer a static 800 for all levels?

I personally would prefer a static 600 radius to match it with EW's ultimate passive, regardless of how different the skills or the heroes are. Or the fact that Reflection has a down-time but Gawain does not.

[[E]Nemesis10549]

fayde is completely balanced. No tweaks required imo

[PrestonLee]

Alright Preston, do you think 600 / 700 / 800 clear-vision would be better suited? Or would you prefer a static 800 for all levels?

I personally would prefer a static 600 radius to match it with EW's ultimate passive, regardless of how different the skills or the heroes are. Or the fact that Reflection has a down-time but Gawain does not.

I was actually thinking exactly 600 / 700 / 800 at first, but then I thought that would be too big of a hit to Fayde as she is a melee hero that actively seeks ganks early on whereas EW is a ranged that just has a tacked on clearvision utility as her perk for picking her.

600 range at level 1 seems a bit too much of a hit imo and makes her vision when walking through trees kind of off when she can't see past trees at all when running through them; keeping it at 800 at least keeps her vision the same as night vision when walking through trees which seems to make sense to me.

So going back to my previous post, I think 800/900/1000 is a good babystep to consider as it still nerfs her scouting abiliter somewhat in the later stages of the game, while not being too drastic of a change from where it currently is at. I'd also consider trying the static 800 at all levels, but again it may (or may not) be too big of a hit for her vision in terms of competitive viability (though I wouldn't know cuz I'm not a competitive player ).