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  1. #1

    Heroes of Newerth: The way it should have been.

    I've been around since closed beta. As a player who came from DotA, I instantly picked Heroes of Newerth (HoN) instead of his casual counterpart, League of Legends (LoL).
    With a faster paced action, HoN was indeed a good, fun and thrilling game, so I pre-purchased it, knowing I would be around for long.
    After many policy changes, the HoN experience grew different, and players like me, who have been around since the beginning, felt those differences the most.
    I'm Brazillian. So if your prejudice will deny you from understanding this post, save your time and leave.
    Today I found the post regarding the "Official Launch" of HoN in Latin America and Korea. After reading it, I can only say I'm, finally, very disappointed. After some time thinking about the issue, I decided to make this post, which I hope to reach the Heads of S2 Games, for the future of this game that I enjoy so much.
    Here I'll point out the biggest changes in HoN that, in my opinion, could have been better and say how I think it should have been, for the sake of the community and the company itself.
    Don't get me wrong, I've been around until now and will still be around after being put aside by this stupid measure, but I really don't think these changes are leading HoN to a brighter future.

    ==============================

    Pay-to-Play(P2P) to Free-to-Play(F2P):
    This was the first (and biggest) major change to HoN. P2P ensured compromised players and even matches, since everyone had access to the full hero pool and players only had to pay for every account they wanted to use (hence, players would think twice before disconnecting from a game, griefing or doing anything else that would end up bad for them).
    With the change to F2P policy, griefers and a larger amount of smurfs appeared and the older players experienced a period of unbalanced matches, for new players had no access to all the heroes. The rotating hero pool and heroes for sale in the shop is, of course, the most viable way to keep the game up as a F2P game. But it's far from efficient for the competitive scenario.

    The way it should have been:
    S2 Games should have predicted the strategy of its competitor and launched HoN as F2P from the start, as a game thought/planned to be so. It was noticeable how adrupt this change was, just like the reason for the change: HoN couldn't compete with LoL. Of course not, new/casual players prefer a more friendly/easy and free game than an aggressive one, full of more seasoned players and which they have to pay. That feels like "Pay to lose" and no one likes that.
    Another possible option was to make HoN a much better game and kept the P2P policy. Everybody said it was released far from ready and I agree.
    If S2 Games had taken a little more time to "polish" HoN before it's release and kept the game updated according to the mass community (and not only their testers of doubtful competence), as well as made a decent Tutorial/Introducing System to new players, no one would care to pay. People happily pay to play excellent games. Doubt it? Ask Blizzard.



    Hero Release on a Regular Basis:

    At some point in the history of HoN, S2 Games decided that new heroes should be added every fixed amount of time. Understandable, since "new heroes" means "new content". BUT, "new content" isn't only a "new" item alone. "New content" is, too, updated versions of the previous existing contents, in order to make this "old" content work together with the "new" content the best way possible. And S2 Games didn't realise that. This is a flaw that HoN still didn't get rid of.

    The way it should have been:
    There's not much to say here. Regular release of heroes isn't a good measure in any way possible. Heroes should be realeased when they are ready to be so. During this interval of "no hero released", the community would be satisfied and happy with decent balances on existing heroes, new alternative content (which can be released in a regular basis with no problems), item balances, new for-fun maps/game modes.
    I still hope S2 Games will abandon this hero release schedule and release them when they are finished, debugged and balanced to a reasonable level.
    Also, regular balances are more welcome and effective for the game than a single gigantic balance patch every 3 months or more.


    Rise of the Shop Prices:
    I know you need money to keep running S2 Games, we all know.
    It's REALLY okay to put two prices on the items for sale and make the real money one lower. But no one likes to feel extorted, and that's EXACTLY what you do.
    Specially for heroes, that affects the game experience directly since F2P.

    How it should have been:
    Prices should have been standardized from the start.
    Heroes should have a fixed cost according to their complexity, so new players could buy the easier heroes first and, that way, stay motivated to play, instead of saving 750 silver coins by being stomped every match (or waste US$ 5 worth in gold coins) just to play Lord Salforis. That's demotivating. There's just no reason for DotA ported heroes cost less than your own made heroes. That's a stupid criterion.
    As for the other alternative items (cosmetics and such), they should have a standard, not abusive price for every item and another standard, higher price, for Premium/Limited/Gold items.
    390 gold coins or 3000 silver coins is something that we would expend on a premium item before. Nowadays, any lame avatar costs that.



    Region Segregation:
    Finally, the change that motivated me to sit and write this long, tiring post: the region segregation.
    Region segregation is NOT the way to go unless you have no way of providing a quality service for that region.
    A game have a much stronger position in the market if its community is united as a whole around the globe. Each region have its own play styles and culture of that game. By separating them, you're forcing each region to see always similar strategies, players's tempers and personalities. And by doing so like it's happening now (out of nowhere), you're severing bonds that have been built during this time of mixed regions, and that's nowhere near pleasant.

    How it should have been:
    HoN already has a simple region selection system.
    The best course of action would be to improve this system so the player could select the regions where he wants to queue in (and make partnerships to offer servers in various regions) and (if wanted) select the regions he didn't wan't to play with. I study/work in the area and I know it's easy to do that.
    It's possible to identify the region of an IP to ban it from a client. It's equally possible to identify the region of an IP and allow a player to choose NOT TO PLAY with anyone from that region, while offering servers located in each region without segregating the whole community and forcing them to play on different clients.
    Segregated region means less players for each region, which in turn means a much poor experience for everyone. Plus, HoN communitty is not as large as it's competitors.


    ==============================

    That's it. I hope this post reaches someone in the top chairs of S2 Games and I pray for the success of this game.
    I really wish S2 Games analyzed better theirs choices and had a better marketing team. This game has lots of potential, but is going down due to bad decisions.

    BR haters: start training the "I'm not bad, I'm just stoned" excuse, because you'll need to use it more often since we won't be around anymore to take the blame. It has come the time for you to realize how bad you really are. But yeah.... many of us are noobs, annoying, selfish and bad mannered. That doesn't make you a good player though.


    Best Regards for the entire community.
    Last edited by YuumeiRei; 04-01-2012 at 03:05 AM.

  2. #2
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    OP the guy is typing in Portuguese (certain phrases, words that I know to be that language). He is laughing like heuheu, typing KKKKKK.
    I'm pretty sure he is Brasilian. I personally don't call random ppl 'BR'. You can tell from their nicknames/broken English. It's hard to fake. Requires homework.
    To the ppl that call random bad players BR well get your heads checked.
    This post was to your last paragraph.

    About you guys leaving etc well S2 would have given this long hard thought.
    BR has a massive population. A lot of business. They wouldnt have decided over night. They also know they have to keep us happy.
    Anyways all the best.

    PS. As I am on here a lot I am going to go ahead and say that 75% of the complaints made about brazilians was about the language barrier.
    Like Xanderk said it's a team game. I know that not all BRs speak with broken/no English, hell yours is better then mine but MOST do. That's a problem.
    Countless games where a guy on the mic spots a gank tells us to go back, we all do. Guess who's still hanging around. Then dies and types 'no miss?' noob team.
    Frustrating and breaks down team spirit.
    Last edited by MojoSpirit; 03-31-2012 at 12:23 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by MojoSpirit View Post
    OP the guy is typing in Portuguese (certain phrases, words that I know to be that language). He is laughing like heuheu, typing KKKKKK.
    I'm pretty sure he is Brasilian. I personally don't call random ppl 'BR'. You can tell from their nicknames/broken English. It's hard to fake. Requires homework.
    To the ppl that call random bad players BR well get your heads checked.
    This post was to your last paragraph.
    There's nothing wrong with "BR".
    Personally, as a brazillian myself, I get mad at other brazillians for being bad mannered online. It happens due to some local cultures, like the government making it easier for poor people to have a computer and internet access. Nothing wrong with that, but education and good manners doesn't come with the program. That said, I know how annoying a brazillian can be, and it has nothing to do with gams skill.

    That paragraph was meant for players who always blame the brazillians, no matter how the game outcome is

  4. #4
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    Can't really disagree with anything. Releasing new heroes in a regular basis is a way for them to get paid in a regular basis, which is rather sad, I wonder when "quality beats quantity" started being irrelevant.


  5. #5
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    I understand that S2 is a fledgling company and that it is bound to make mistakes. However, I do feel that there has been plenty of mismanagement inside the company, and that the company itself really lacks a direction or goal. I'm not saying that there isn't, it's just that we don't see it. S2 doesn't like to talk about things until they SPRING it onto the playerbase and hope for the best, which usually generates mixed reactions because the community feels that their feedback and opinions don't matter, otherwise S2 would have asked for it on a certain new "thing" they were planning on adding.

    I see a bit of improvement though, because of all the announcements that are made and how the community actually has a say-so in the polls for what they want to see and what they like.
    iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiii

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DreadLocks View Post
    I understand that S2 is a fledgling company and that it is bound to make mistakes. However, I do feel that there has been plenty of mismanagement inside the company, and that the company itself really lacks a direction or goal. I'm not saying that there isn't, it's just that we don't see it. S2 doesn't like to talk about things until they SPRING it onto the playerbase and hope for the best, which usually generates mixed reactions because the community feels that their feedback and opinions don't matter, otherwise S2 would have asked for it on a certain new "thing" they were planning on adding.

    I see a bit of improvement though, because of all the announcements that are made and how the community actually has a say-so in the polls for what they want to see and what they like.

    True that. But S2 should've done that earlier. At least they are learning with their mistakes... slowly, but learning.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyclam View Post
    Can't really disagree with anything. Releasing new heroes in a regular basis is a way for them to get paid in a regular basis, which is rather sad, I wonder when "quality beats quantity" started being irrelevant.
    i have bought artesia, zerker, kinesis, gunblade, and blitz

    i can say i'm satisfied with them all

    personally i REALLY enjoy art's magic DPS, she's really the first to shine in constant burst since tort

  8. #8
    I found Kinesis very fun to play

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by YuumeiRei View Post
    Pay-to-Play(P2P) to Free-to-Play(F2P):
    This was the first (and biggest) major change to HoN. P2P ensured compromised players and even matches, since everyone had access to the full hero pool and players only had to pay for every account they wanted to use (hence, players would think twice before disconnecting from a game, griefing or doing anything else that would end up bad for them).
    With the change to F2P policy, griefers and a larger amount of smurfs appeared and the older players experienced a period of unbalanced matches, for new players had no access to all the heroes. The rotating hero pool and heroes for sale in the shop is, of course, the most viable way to keep the game up as a F2P game. But it's far from efficient for the competitive scenario.

    The way it should have been:
    S2 Games should have predicted the strategy of its competitor and launched HoN as F2P from the start, as a game thought/planned to be so. It was noticeable how adrupt this change was, just like the reason for the change: HoN couldn't compete with LoL. Of course not, new/casual players prefer a more friendly/easy and free game than an aggressive one, full of more seasoned players and which they have to pay. That feels like "Pay to lose" and no one likes that.
    Another possible option was to make HoN a much better game and kept the P2P policy. Everybody said it was released far from ready and I agree.
    If S2 Games had taken a little more time to "polish" HoN before it's release and kept the game updated according to the mass community (and not only their testers of doubtful competence), as well as made a decent Tutorial/Introducing System to new players, no one would care to pay. People happily pay to play excellent games. Doubt it? Ask Blizzard.



    Region Segregation:
    Finally, the change that motivated me to sit and write this long, tiring post: the region segregation.
    Region segregation is NOT the way to go unless you have no way of providing a quality service for that region.
    A game have a much stronger position in the market if its community is united as a whole around the globe. Each region have its own play styles and culture of that game. By separating them, you're forcing each region to see always similar strategies, players's tempers and personalities. And by doing so like it's happening now (out of nowhere), you're severing bonds that have been built during this time of mixed regions, and that's nowhere near pleasant.

    How it should have been:
    HoN already has a simple region selection system.
    The best course of action would be to improve this system so the player could select the regions where he wants to queue in (and make partnerships to offer servers in various regions) and (if wanted) select the regions he didn't wan't to play with. I study/work in the area and I know it's easy to do that.
    It's possible to identify the region of an IP to ban it from a client. It's equally possible to identify the region of an IP and allow a player to choose NOT TO PLAY with anyone from that region, while offering servers located in each region without segregating the whole community and forcing them to play on different clients.
    Segregated region means less players for each region, which in turn means a much poor experience for everyone. Plus, HoN communitty is not as large as it's competitors.


    Best Regards for the entire community.
    You may be a BR but you know what youre talking about. I dont know why S2 thought it was a good idea to separate the entire planet. They should have just did the region selecting thing across the whole planet at the start, like you suggested, i have been thinking that as well.

    The whole F2P thing, im fine with that. But i believe making games more casual makes the games ****. It lets new gamers become panzies and weak, and dont know how to handle the trolling, and are just generally bad players. Because they arent "tempered by fire" so to speak.

    This new generation of gamers are complete crap and babies, and it is disgusting to see game giants such as Blizzard caving in to them. I use to be a WoW player, back in Vanilla and BC the game was difficult and entertaining, but the easier it became the worse it was and the more boring it became.

    So i believe S2 should keep HoN to being a competitive and difficult game, dont fall to the noobs who want an easy game. Let the next generation be tempered by the fire of the community and the anvil of the game.
    Hmph, I'm up against all of you guys? Hahah, well then, sounds like I have nothing to worry about. This war's already been won.
    -MrSnowJr


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSnowJr View Post
    You may be a BR but you know what youre talking about. I dont know why S2 thought it was a good idea to separate the entire planet. They should have just did the region selecting thing across the whole planet at the start, like you suggested, i have been thinking that as well.

    The whole F2P thing, im fine with that. But i believe making games more casual makes the games ****. It lets new gamers become panzies and weak, and dont know how to handle the trolling, and are just generally bad players. Because they arent "tempered by fire" so to speak.

    This new generation of gamers are complete crap and babies, and it is disgusting to see game giants such as Blizzard caving in to them. I use to be a WoW player, back in Vanilla and BC the game was difficult and entertaining, but the easier it became the worse it was and the more boring it became.

    So i believe S2 should keep HoN to being a competitive and difficult game, dont fall to the noobs who want an easy game. Let the next generation be tempered by the fire of the community and the anvil of the game.
    New players are needed and we can't do nothing about their lack of skill. It's the game's developer job to give the proper assets so the new players can get aquainted to the game and it's mechanics. Truth be said, HoN's tutorial is awful.
    I like HoN because it's as competitive as DotA (not casual like LoL), but the play style is even more aggressive. I agree with you when you say that new players should adapt to the game and not the other way around. But the game should give newbies the means to do so, right?

  11. #11
    The biggest problem that will surface in the time to come, will be that the NA playerbase will have increased queue times, simply due to the fact that the NA playerbase is so small.

    I can understand S2's logic about outsourcing the responsibility for servers and maintenance located far from the US, but this should be done in a way that ensures that the players don't get affected by a reduced playerbase to queue with (Same client/different operating office).

    S2 could sell a "certificate" to interested parties abroad, allowing them to advertise the game, setting up and manage servers, for a cut of the shop income situated from the region they operate from.
    If thiswould be worthwhile for those who chose to do so, is something I can't say for certain, but in theory this would lift a lot of responsibility from S2's shoulders, and give them an easier task when it comes to keeping the playerbase happy..

  12. #12
    Excellent post.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterPlox View Post
    The biggest problem that will surface in the time to come, will be that the NA playerbase will have increased queue times, simply due to the fact that the NA playerbase is so small.

    I can understand S2's logic about outsourcing the responsibility for servers and maintenance located far from the US, but this should be done in a way that ensures that the players don't get affected by a reduced playerbase to queue with (Same client/different operating office).

    S2 could sell a "certificate" to interested parties abroad, allowing them to advertise the game, setting up and manage servers, for a cut of the shop income situated from the region they operate from.
    If thiswould be worthwhile for those who chose to do so, is something I can't say for certain, but in theory this would lift a lot of responsibility from S2's shoulders, and give them an easier task when it comes to keeping the playerbase happy..
    Yeah... NA queue times will possibly get much longer :/
    I, too, can see a reason for S2 do what they are doing, but I strongly believe it's not the best course of action, like I said in the first post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigvatr View Post
    Excellent post.
    Thanks =D

  14. #14
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    my respect op

  15. #15
    Very well said.
    +1

  16. #16
    P2PvF2P: I wish people could still buy Legacy accounts and you could select to only play with the Legacy account people so you could get away from F2P leavers/etc, if you chose that option. It only takes a few games to get "verified" and off to trolling people that paid money to enjoy the game, very annoying. Many F2P players also do not understand the concept of Public Games versus MMR because they want Silver Coins to buy stuff and Legacy players are forced at times to play with someone who has a few games under their belt while really knowing nothing about the game.

    Hero Release: Every two weeks means having to adjust the metagame slightly and for new players (and people who do not read everything about the hero) this is just another random variable in games that will ruin their experience. It would be nice if they instead focused on current balance of the game instead of feeling the need to just pump out money makers, since a better game can also mean more players (equals more money in turn).

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirtek View Post
    P2PvF2P: I wish people could still buy Legacy accounts and you could select to only play with the Legacy account people so you could get away from F2P leavers/etc, if you chose that option. It only takes a few games to get "verified" and off to trolling people that paid money to enjoy the game, very annoying. Many F2P players also do not understand the concept of Public Games versus MMR because they want Silver Coins to buy stuff and Legacy players are forced at times to play with someone who has a few games under their belt while really knowing nothing about the game.

    Hero Release: Every two weeks means having to adjust the metagame slightly and for new players (and people who do not read everything about the hero) this is just another random variable in games that will ruin their experience. It would be nice if they instead focused on current balance of the game instead of feeling the need to just pump out money makers, since a better game can also mean more players (equals more money in turn).
    I disagree with the allowance of buying Legacy accounts. That would be unfair with people who purchased the game before it was F2P.
    I think HoN should be kept P2P, that would ensure the best game experience possible. Unfortunately, the market competition didn't make this possible.
    Once it went F2P, they needed something to show "gratitude" for the players who bought the game earlier, thus giving birth to Legacy Accounts.
    About the option to play with Legacy accounts alone, that would be unnecessary if HoN had a good conveyance for new players, so they didn't "spawn" in the middle of seasoned players and ruined most of the gaming experience.

    On the rest, my words exactly

  18. #18
    The fact that they promise alot and then give a **** about it annoys alot of people.

    Ignorance + Greed = Unhappy Players

    And I donīt talk about balance at all. Most of the ppl are too bad to talk about balance issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbage View Post
    Boris, it is not my fault that google does not understand your people. As far as my english, it's only getting more gooder by the day because at my university I am physics.

  19. #19
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    Why even bring up F2P? You want them to go in time and do F2P from the start? Nice hindsight but your point is worthless.

    As far as the shop prices they are trying to find the sweet spot. I guess you expected them to know from day one what the price point should be.

    I fully support the segragation of servers. I have never felt the need to play on BR servers or anything but Americian servers.

    The one thing we might have in common os the hero releases. I would like to see them slow it down to a max of one per month. They can not maintain this pace and keep quality up.

    Thanks for your opinions OP. I only agree with one of them myself.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by facedown View Post
    Why even bring up F2P? You want them to go in time and do F2P from the start? Nice hindsight but your point is worthless.

    As far as the shop prices they are trying to find the sweet spot. I guess you expected them to know from day one what the price point should be.

    I fully support the segragation of servers. I have never felt the need to play on BR servers or anything but Americian servers.

    The one thing we might have in common os the hero releases. I would like to see them slow it down to a max of one per month. They can not maintain this pace and keep quality up.

    Thanks for your opinions OP. I only agree with one of them myself.
    I agree

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