Blitz Speculation

[[TsGr]Isis]

Pure and total garbage. He's a bad support because he needs to WAIT to stun for 4-5 seconds while W builds up. Even if his W did damage and stole movement speed instantly, he STILL wouldn't be too good due to his bad range and lack of scaling abilities.
Having to sit around waiting for 4-5 seconds doesn't seem to fit the concept of a character who should be the fastest in the game.

Ult cooldown is absurdly long. 150 cd for an aoe 225 damage nuke that slows for 3 seconds? really? it's like glacius's blast on a stupidly long cooldown. Also, why is there a PROJECTILE ON THIS ABILITY? This hero is supposed to be fast, but he's mind numbingly slow and boring

Third skill is garbage. Why does it work on dark seer? because of his SHELL. It works well on heroes like silhouette and electrician, who thrive on being really close to enemies, but BOTH of them already have skills to accomplish this. Combined with the retardedly slow cast time, it's just a horrible skill.

First skill is "meh". Why would you cap it if it's already so situational?

So, Low life - check, zero late abilities - check, sub par damage - check, low burst - check, nearly zero AoE damage - check. Why would you EVER pick this hero over witch slayer? Not only does he have vastly superior crowd control, his burst is higher as soon as he hits level 6, he has MUCH higher range, and he's int. This hero is outshined by nearly every other support and ganking hero in the game. I see no purpose in picking a hero where you have to give the enemy 4-5 seconds (2nd skill buildup) to stun you and run away while you wait for your nuke to be at the height of power. The only reason this works for corrupted is because his leech steals 200 damage, not some movespeed that half the abilities in the game could accomplish instantly (hello slither).

[[SSBC]Balls`n`Nuts]

I think you need to give it some time.
Played him a couple of times and from my point of view he seems ok.

[man_guy]

First skill is "meh". Why would you cap it if it's already so situational?

It's not capped by the skill itself. It's bound by the min and max move speeds, it's just informing you of the numbers in the tooltip.

[[Bnet]AngelBr]

Pure and total garbage. He's a bad support because he needs to WAIT to stun for 4-5 seconds while W builds up. Even if his W did damage and stole movement speed instantly, he STILL wouldn't be too good due to his bad range and lack of scaling abilities.
Having to sit around waiting for 4-5 seconds doesn't seem to fit the concept of a character who should be the fastest in the game.

Ult cooldown is absurdly long. 150 cd for an aoe 225 damage nuke that slows for 3 seconds? really? it's like glacius's blast on a stupidly long cooldown. Also, why is there a PROJECTILE ON THIS ABILITY? This hero is supposed to be fast, but he's mind numbingly slow and boring

Third skill is garbage. Why does it work on dark seer? because of his SHELL. It works well on heroes like silhouette and electrician, who thrive on being really close to enemies, but BOTH of them already have skills to accomplish this. Combined with the retardedly slow cast time, it's just a horrible skill.

First skill is "meh". Why would you cap it if it's already so situational?

So, Low life - check, zero late abilities - check, sub par damage - check, low burst - check, nearly zero AoE damage - check. Why would you EVER pick this hero over witch slayer? Not only does he have vastly superior crowd control, his burst is higher as soon as he hits level 6, he has MUCH higher range, and he's int. This hero is outshined by nearly every other support and ganking hero in the game. I see no purpose in picking a hero where you have to give the enemy 4-5 seconds (2nd skill buildup) to stun you and run away while you wait for your nuke to be at the height of power. The only reason this works for corrupted is because his leech steals 200 damage, not some movespeed that half the abilities in the game could accomplish instantly (hello slither).

yeah... have another best support heroes.
and ppl said he is a carrier.... but he dont have good skills to late game... and low burts dmg. you will need alot of itens for can carrier..... Nymphora with same itens can carrier too....

He not good support or ganker or carrier....

[Doracahl]

he definitely feels sluggish for being "fast"

[Lethe]

god. unbelievable how many times people explain how the cap is due to max/min movespeeds, not the skill itself, and people are still baffled.

[PzKw]

Except it's not. There is no hero in the game that has higher than 0 movespeed while stunned, except their movespeed is still calculated as min 100. Clearly there's something there worth looking at.

[Lethe]

Stuns do not modify MS.

Any constant S2 has tried to tinker has blown up in their face.

[PzKw]

Or, when you have an ability that is specifically coded to work off MS, like Might of the Herd or Blitzkrieg, you add a couple of lines of code that say something along the lines of

"If unit has status effect immobilise/stun then use value 0 for MS in this ability."

That's not tinkering with a constant, it's tinkering with 2 abilities to make them function in a consistant manner.

[Lethe]

Except it becomes inconsistent with the rest of the hero roster. Suddenly it makes no sense for the rest of the hero pool to have their slows capped at 100 MS. People are wondering why Rev at level 3 ult can't completely immobilize an enemy hero. Slows become even more lethal than they already are. 100 MS is slow. Any lower MS is an even more significant decrease. I'm sure I don't have to mathematically prove that 60 MS would be 40% less than the current minimum MS. Again, stuns do not modify MS, unless it's an explicit side effect (like geo sotm ult). They never have. You want to make two skills 'function in a consistent manner' for the heroes themselves, yet be inconsistent with the rest of the hero pool. Interesting.

Yea, you can tinker with a spell that is fine, breaching minimum MS and creating inconsistencies that people will notice. Maybe you should look at the things that are actually a significant issue...which is pretty much absolutely everything else about the hero.

[[f13]`11411181]

It's called an exception. This entire genre is based on them.

[Lethe]

Really, if S2 wants to create exceptions to min and max MS, that's their call.

Don't come crying when you have heroes running around at 600+ MS. In fact, while we're at it, let's remove the max movespeed cap for Blitz's E. It's underpowered anyway. I'm sure everyone wants heroes running around at 800 MS.

[PzKw]

What are you even talking about.

I have a cool one for you, stuns and immobilises currently set MS to 0.

MS is a measure of how many in game units an entity can move per second. Suddenly, your mind = blown as you realise that there has already been a subset of abilities in the game for 10 years that break the "MS cap", except that certain abilities that use the MS as a variable as part of another formula don't look at it that way and use stated MS value instead of effective MS value.

But really, 60MS is 40% less than 100MS, and 100MS = slow. My mind is blow, your powers of insight have laid me low. I was also wrong all this time when I thought that a stunned unit couldn't move, which would make the number of units it can walk per second 0. I can now see that stunned units in fact move at a bare minimum of 100 units per second, but more usually move at the same number of units per second that they moved at before being stunned (unless they had a slow cast on them that made the number of units they could move per second while not being able to move less than the original number). I can already see how your view of this is far more consistant with the reality I've been observing than mine was.

[Antimodus]

so if we consider stuns and roots as putting you on 0 ms, do we also consider holds (devo ult, PWP, succu ult, panda ult) as well?

To slow down someone considerably you either need to stack slows or use a really powerful one (a hex for instance). In case of roots stuns and holds, all it takes is one spell and they're at "0 ms" and now blitz Q becomes a supernuke comparable to a ws /pyro ult?

Look, the way it is right now, this hero needs all the help he can get, I just think like this is not the right thing. It should still be decided what role is this hero even supposed to fulfill. Right now he seems really bad at all of them.

[Lethe]

Pzkw, aren't you the same balance guru who supposedly beta tested for Icefrog during the dota 6.5x days and didnt' even know SA's backstab did magic damage?

Perhaps I should have quit bothering when you stated stuns set MS to 100. Clearly heroes can move at 100 MS when stunned by your logic. Have at 'er balance junkies. I'm sure you will make Blitz a great hero.

[PzKw]

One and the same. I was mistaken about the unlisted damage type change that occurred some two years after it was changed and reverted, I was also a bit stubborn about it. The latter of those two was something to be sorry about, the former was an honest mistake.

Now on the other hand, when I was clearly shown to be wrong, I admitted it immediately and even apologised for making a fuss, whereas you're trying to argue that stunned units should be considered to have a movespeed of something other than 0 (ie. that stunned heroes are capable of walking at least 100 units per second).

No one is really suggesting that cumulative slows should be able to reduce a unit below 100 movespeed, we're suggesting that stunned or immobilised units be considered as possessing 0 movespeed (which is what they effectively already have in game) for the purposes of working out damage on Blitzkrieg (or Might of the Herd if immobilised).

[[LsE]Hsssh]

Sorry, wasn't aware that you can't reduce speed below 100.

In case of roots stuns and holds, all it takes is one spell and they're at "0 ms" and now blitz Q becomes a supernuke comparable to a ws /pyro ult?

Its 70 non-reduce magic damage difference and you'd have to bring someone else with you for a gank.

[[IaF]Skyve]

Except it becomes inconsistent with the rest of the hero roster. Suddenly it makes no sense for the rest of the hero pool to have their slows capped at 100 MS. People are wondering why Rev at level 3 ult can't completely immobilize an enemy hero. Slows become even more lethal than they already are. 100 MS is slow. Any lower MS is an even more significant decrease. I'm sure I don't have to mathematically prove that 60 MS would be 40% less than the current minimum MS. Again, stuns do not modify MS, unless it's an explicit side effect (like geo sotm ult). They never have. You want to make two skills 'function in a consistent manner' for the heroes themselves, yet be inconsistent with the rest of the hero pool. Interesting.

Yea, you can tinker with a spell that is fine, breaching minimum MS and creating inconsistencies that people will notice. Maybe you should look at the things that are actually a significant issue...which is pretty much absolutely everything else about the hero.

There is little to no difference if you define an immobilize as moving at 0 ms or not moving at all.
The better question here is if the potentially 75 more damage solve any issue the hero might have.

I guess it would also allow him to work better with other heroes in general and would less force him to use all his skills on a single person.

[Lethe]

That's what I'm saying. Address something else.
Pzkw, I'm quite familiar with the difference between mechanical and effective min ms, thx. The issue is that 100 ms is almost certainly defined in some random dll as the absolute min mechanical Ms, meaning that it won't be as easy as adding a few lines of code to blitz's ability1.

If a coder can prove otherwise, go for it. I doubt that will happen. So I repeat, look at more practical buffs that we know will be easy to implement. Pretty sure no one in the right mind thinks blitz is remotely good. Even q Could be rebalanced without unnecessary hard mechanic changes by altering base and bonus damage.

[Antimodus]

no, -right now- stuns do not change ms at all. So the suggestion of having them set your ms to 0 would actually make the spell do around 200 more damage on a stunned/rooted/held target