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As we all know, Sacrificial Stone is an item that hasn't been used much since ages.
The only times we've seen it in competitive play it had been used by H4nn1 on Balphagore in recent times.
The interesting thing about the item is that it allows for a relatively easy upgrade to commonly used items like :HelmOfTheBlackLegio and :RingOfSorcery:. And yet, this option is never utilized, despite the fact that both these items lose in effectiveness as the game progresses, and disassembling them makes up for over half the cost of :SacrificialStone: - leaving only the :Glowstone: and :Manatube: to be bought for completion.
Apart from that, the item also provides another effect that is very much unique and very desireable in HoN due to a change to a significant part of the game a while ago:
Buybacks.
HoN has a limited amount of buybacks. This is very important, and something I can't stress enough, because this is what should give :SacrificialStone: a huge reason to be picked up - Sacrificial Stone is capable of "increasing" your effectively available buybacks, or rather limit the opponent teams ability to force you to buyback due to its ability to create your deathtimer by a large amount.
The only other item that can do that is :GraveLocket:, and that item does so much more efficiently if you look at it on a deathtime reduction per charge basis:
Gravelocket reduces the amount of time you spend dead by 10 seconds for one charge, while Sacrificial Stone requires 4 charges (-> 4 deaths assisted in without dying since you get 3 seconds lower deathtimer per charge) to outperform it.
Of course - Sacrificial Stone offers more potential, so it shouldn't be better than Grave Locket in a direct comparison per charge, but it also shouldn't lose out that much if you compare the difference in price - :SacrificialStone:'s components each cost more than :GraveLocket: does as a whole.
Of course - Sacrificial Stone also offers other effects beside the death timer reduction, but like I said, I feel that in HoN that reduction is the most significant part to the item as you do not have a limitless number of buybacks, so the ability to conserve them should be valued much more than it is.
That said, the item is rarely if ever picked up, and I do not doubt that most people don't even think about what the deathtimer reduction could actually do. And because of that, I feel that Sacrificial Stone's reduction in time spent dead per charge might be too low.
However, as the deathtimer depends on your level, a static reduction for every charge might be more difficult to balance as it could easily have a gigantic impact on earlier stages of the same, so maybe a percentage based system (~5-10% per charge?) would be a better solution, maybe even capped at a certain percentage so it will never grant an instant respawn (but then again - why shouldn't it?).
Another possibility why it isn't picked a lot could be that gaining charges takes a while, only for you to lose half of them on death. Since the item starts out on 0 charges, and you can't expect to gain charges easily or fast by the time you have it in every situation, picking it up could be incentivised by giving less punishment for not picking it up as your first item.
Anyhow, what are your thoughts on this?
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Well personally i think the item is fine, but i only buy if for luxury..
I guess it could need a buff on the respawn time thingy.
Wasn't this item scheduled for a remake?
Sac Stone tries to offer a myriad of things to make up for the fact that it offers nothing but raw health and mana + reg without providing anything that really stands out, reduction timer + heal based on charges when you die makes no sense (as one mechanic essentially rewards you for staying alive, while the other mechanic 'rewards' your team when you die). It essentially tries to be a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, but falls short in that category as players are usually looking for something more specific to counter enemy damage (Nullstone/Heart/Deamonic/Helm/Barrier/Frostfield/Frostwolf).
For it to stand out from the crowd, it needs something to give it an edge. Make it more specialized. Drop certain parts of it while strengthening other parts. I'll quit here before I start making suggestions.
Actually it's more abot giving the enemy a reason to kill you last (as killing you early would provide your team with a heal) + rewarding you for the kills/assists you collect while staying alive.reduction timer + heal based on charges when you die makes no sense (as one mechanic essentially rewards you for staying alive, while the other mechanic 'rewards' your team when you die).
If you read what I wrote it already has that, it probably just needs to build on that, at least in theory.For it to stand out from the crowd, it needs something to give it an edge.
Last edited by Gorb; 03-28-2012 at 03:46 PM. Reason: fixed your broken quote <3
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I think the biggest problem with it is gaining charges relative to the amount of farm it takes to get it. Grave Locket is popular because it's so cheap and easy to build that you can get it early and get a lot of effectiveness out of it. In order for Sac Stone to be effective you need so much farm that by the time you get it most of the potential to get charges during a good time in the game are gone.
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That is not entirely true though. If you consider that Sac Stone CAN be gotten as a first item and has no more difficult buildup overall than HotBL (in fact, HotBL can be used as a "stepping stone") it can be gotten even before most ranged agility heroes finish their lvl3 shieldbreaker or Geometer's Bane. Which is early enough to make it matter and get a decent amount of charges.Originally Posted by Rosgath
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Sacrificial stone is way underpowered and it will need a whole lot of buff in order to be used. Even in dota where it gives u 200% mana reg and comes with 5 charges from the beginning, it still isnt picked up, and if it is, its very questionable. I think it even comes down to the pace of the game.
The reduction in death time isnt as big as you would like it to be, in our face-pace games. The tihng that I really consider it to be very very good, is the heal after you die, but that means yuo lose alot of charges.
It actually has been used in DotA(2) at least twice last week and reached 15+ charges both times.
This might just be a numbers issue, which is why I said using a percentage might be beneficial for an effect such as this.The reduction in death time isnt as big as you would like it to be, in our face-pace games.
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Its a problem with the way the item is designed. If you are doing well, the item continues to do well, but if you are doing poorly it gets worse and worse. Its a rolling stone of an item that doesn't give you any edge unless teams are already being killed. Whereas an item such as Shrunken Head or a well placed Nullstone can change the game at the point its gained, Sacrificial Stone requires some momentum before it can be of 'any' use (I say that very loosely as the health and mana is always technically useful).
All in all it needs a little bit of love because it offers no instant benefit on purchase towards the next team fight, and thus has trouble even being a rolling stone esque item because of that lack of instant benefit.
IMO of course.
EDIT: This is taking into account the item by itself and not dissembling different pieces to achieve it. That is a huge strength that I don't think is realized.
The sign of lost Carcosa appeared in the air, paralyzing us with dread older than the very idea of time.
As we looked on in horror, the unholy sign dissolved into a lone figure, shrouded in yellow.
Given the price of the item, there's no way Sanc Stone isn't supposed to be a carry item, so I'm not sure why the charges go half in on this retarded support concept and half in on the carry concept. The regen per-charge is pretty terrible, but it'd be hard to buff because gaining significant regen through being near people who die would be OP. That being said, if it is supposed to be a carry item, shouldn't it gain charges on kills?
It used to be like that (gave 2 health regen per charge, not sure about mana regen), but it didn't really work afaik. Way too limited.
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Then it should receive charges the same way it does then =\. Still think the regen could use a buff, as it stands this item's current functionality (survivability) blows.
I think that if you removed the need for a manatube and replaced it with a gravelocket it would be picked up more frequently. It would be a minor buff to the cost, while making the buildup that much more liberal, allowing players to pickup a gravelocket and then build it into the sacstone, or build a ring and then pull it apart and use it's pieces. It seems fitting to me that the one of the two charge on kill item be built into the other one.
//1600scrub
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I would be inclined to agree but the reason that Grave Locket is so balanced for its cost is because it takes up a slot and doesn't build into anything. The item offers you stats and nothing more at the expense of an item slot and an investment which cannot grow into anything else.
As much as flavour is a huge part of me, I would say its not a wise decision to give more power to an already cost efficient item such as Grave Locket.
The sign of lost Carcosa appeared in the air, paralyzing us with dread older than the very idea of time.
As we looked on in horror, the unholy sign dissolved into a lone figure, shrouded in yellow.
Yeah I agree too. The Grave locket building into anything makes it even more OP.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Not so sure. Building it into a sacrificial stone is a very heavy investment. It doesn't make the Grave locket any more OP as it's the same stats during the same early levels. I can see many Grave locket users NOT moving into Sacrificial Stone until the very late game when they have exhausted all their other item slots. At which point the effect of the Grave locket is minimal.
Case in point, if you bought the Grave locket and was given 3-4k gold. Would you choose Sacrificial Stone as it currently stands? I would highly doubt it! I would still probably choose to sell the Grave locket and purchase a sheepstick, damage item, heart etc...
It only makes it easier to move into the Sacrifical Stone which will still be a niche item as it currently stands.
Eh, if an item that is only made to be an early game item that is often later sold (think Power Supply) gets an upgrade it gets more powerful, no matter how you twist your logic.
If we got an upgrade to Power Supply it'd be more OP than it already is. I don't see how that's hard to realize.
The same can be said about Bulwark, while many just build the item without thinking of Daemonic in certain cases, it's still part of the power in the item. More options > less options.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Why, is this the thread to discuss if :GraveLocket: is overpowered or not? If the item is indeed in dire need of a nerf, then tying it to :SacrificialStone: in the process would assure avoiding the death of it.
Even if that is not the case, :RingOfTheTeacher: is rumored to be the most powerful item in the game, yet nobody has a problem that it is used to build :NomesWisdom: or :AbyssalSkull:. Your logic seems flawed.
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