[2.5.16] Soul Reaper

[PlayeroJ]

2.5.8:
Increased starting armor from 1.10 to 1.75
Judgment manacost reduced from 125/145/165/185 to 120/140/160/180
Withering Presence radius increased from 700/800/900/1000 to 800/900/1000/1100

There was a buff to his attack animation in patch 2.1 too. I'm really surprised to not be hearing anyone talk about these changes in an SR thread. The starting armor buff was certainly a decent buff.

Not sure what to make of the 5 man cost reduction in judgment; it's a pretty easy spell to spam as it is with SR's ridiculous mana regen as it is, but I guess it's only 5 mana so meh? By the way it seems that the OP really underestimates SR's Inhuman Nature. Dude, SR is a hero you can slap a RotT on and can regen more mana within the span of 5+ minutes than most of the hero pool could with nullstone.

Now the buff they gave Withering Presence rather than reverting the nerf is kind of interesting. They obviously don't want to go back to that level 1 1000 range aura again but they've buffed it early game so that a SR who picks it up can better force an enemies to address him and also buffed it slightly in the end game with the radius buff.

SR is so on the borderline I'm not sure whether to say he's OP or not, but buffs should be handed very delicately; most people here don't seem to understand how easily this hero can become bat **** OP.

[[TK0]Vascariz]

I'm really surprised to not be hearing anyone talk about these changes in an SR thread. The starting armor buff was certainly a decent buff.

I think it's because we all are in agreement that these changes were not enough. So there's no real point going back in time and cataloguing those changes. He was not competitive before that change and he's not competitive after it. The only changes worth going back to were back to when he was competitive BUT noting the change in the current metagame.

By the way it seems that the OP really underestimates SR's Inhuman Nature.

You mean the part where I mention there is no better feeling than working down the hitpoints on a group of creeps, doing a 5 kill Judgement and getting all that mana back with Inhuman Nature. It really encourages skill based play. ? The problem being that it only happens if you are alone in the lane. Also it requires you to put skill points into Inhuman Nature instead of Withering Presence which makes it harder for you to farm as you have next to zero harassing ability against other competitive heroes played by skilled players.

Now the buff they gave Withering Presence rather than reverting the nerf is kind of interesting. They obviously don't want to go back to that level 1 1000 range aura again but they've buffed it early game so that a SR who picks it up can better force an enemies to address him and also buffed it slightly in the end game with the radius buff.

I agree and hence why I prefer Alternative 1 and 2 instead of Alternative 3. I think Alternative 3 is just being lazy and not putting careful thought into how to balance the hero to be competitive. It's just looking back nostagically on the old Soul Reaper and not acknowledging that the game has changed dramatically since then.

[[BRO]Bohrain]

Soul Reaper doesn't need more movement speed or something like this, just revert his aura to the original values with 1000 range on all levels and 0.6%/ 0.8%/1.0%/1.2%.
And additionally buff his managain at the 4th level of the third skill.

That should be enough change for the beginning to make him more useful again.

I agree with the aura radius change, but instead of buffing his 3rd skill to give more mana at lvl 4, I'd change it to give a larger amount of mana from hero kills.

[PlayeroJ]

I think it's because we all are in agreement that these changes were not enough. So there's no real point going back in time and cataloguing those changes. He was not competitive before that change and he's not competitive after it. The only changes worth going back to were back to when he was competitive BUT noting the change in the current metagame.

The last changes were in patch 2.5.8, not that long ago. It really is arguable whether or not he is viable in the current meta-game, and to be honest I'd imagine the hero should already be fine. A large part of his going unpicked a lot in competitive games has to do with the habitual way the competitive field plays.

You mean the part where I mention there is no better feeling than working down the hitpoints on a group of creeps, doing a 5 kill Judgement and getting all that mana back with Inhuman Nature. It really encourages skill based play. ? The problem being that it only happens if you are alone in the lane. Also it requires you to put skill points into Inhuman Nature instead of Withering Presence which makes it harder for you to farm as you have next to zero harassing ability against other competitive heroes played by skilled players.

You should only be getting 1 level of withering presence and then inhuman nature until completed anyways. You level withering presence immediately because it does passive damage throughout the entire game which adds up starting from laning phase. You should skip leveling withering presence after you get it at lvl 1 until you're maxed out on judgment and inhuman nature.

[Tyrannate]

Soul Reaper's Q and R are fine. The core issues are with W and E.

W: the main issue is that it starts really weak, and you are FORCED to invest multiple points into it before it becomes even remotely effective. The range and the % of HP drain scale sharply with levels, but start abysmally low.

1 - Revert aura to 1000 range at all ranks, keeping the %HP drained per rank the same
2 - Fix the %HP drained at all levels, increase range per rank

I would suggest fix 2, which is arguably the larger buff of the two. It would bolster his early game quite a bit against melee, but still require additional points for maximum effectiveness -- especially against ranged opponents.

E: the main issue is that this is just a weak ability. Getting mana back is awesome, but look at how many problems this ability has

1 - Requires creeps to be around
2 - Requires a last hit
3 - Gives back a relatively small amount of mana
4 - Requires at least three points to begin to show a significant effect
5 - Lackluster at max rank compared to his other abilities
6 - Boring

I have a couple ideas to throw around

A - Passive/Active ability, passive is the same, single-target activation to place a debuff on the target which returns X% of the damage you deal to it back in health and/or mana. This would encourage a more aggressive playstyle and itemization.

B - Passive/Active ability, passive is the same, active is Berserker's Strength Sap except it drains mana instead of HP.

C - Passive/Active ability, passive the same but gains charges whenever you gain mana back from the the passive, changes capped at X, activate to burn the mana of all surrounding enemy units

D - Passive, mana from units stays the same, mana from hero kills drastically increased

E - Passive/Active ability, passive is the same, activate to create a shield of mana equal to the mana gained in the last X seconds

F - Passive, instead of gaining mana back on deaths of units, instead gains mana back equal to a % of damage dealt to all enemy units. Syngergizes greatly with aura and judgement!

[[TK0]Vascariz]

You should only be getting 1 level of withering presence and then inhuman nature until completed anyways.

Sorry, lvl 1 withering presence is a joke. You are wasting a skillpoint in something that will have basically 0 impact on the lane due to it's range and low hp % removal. Like Inhuman Judgment it only starts to shine about lvl 2/3 onwards when the aura range starts to get problematic and the hp% removal starts to become more significant.

Read Tyrannate's post above mine which is extremely informative.

I have a couple ideas to throw around

Great ideas but I think we are moving into the realm of suggestions. I will generalise my Alternatives section later so that it incorporates the types of suggestions you have made. However, I didn't make reference to mana burn or activating a mana shield as they are not in the theme of the hero. I do like the effect of adding a mana shield like Nome's.

Sounds like a pretty original and great idea to me. What do you guys think?

It does play on the idea in my OP regarding the longer stun. I would also like to see the damage dealt at the END of the stun duration as stated in my OP. I will add that suggestion to my OP.

[[TECH]YawningAngel]

Stick to analysing the hero as is please.

[[VGG]Glibber`]

2.5.8:
Increased starting armor from 1.10 to 1.75
Judgment manacost reduced from 125/145/165/185 to 120/140/160/180
Withering Presence radius increased from 700/800/900/1000 to 800/900/1000/1100

There was a buff to his attack animation in patch 2.1 too. I'm really surprised to not be hearing anyone talk about these changes in an SR thread. The starting armor buff was certainly a decent buff.

Not sure what to make of the 5 man cost reduction in judgment; it's a pretty easy spell to spam as it is with SR's ridiculous mana regen as it is, but I guess it's only 5 mana so meh? By the way it seems that the OP really underestimates SR's Inhuman Nature. Dude, SR is a hero you can slap a RotT on and can regen more mana within the span of 5+ minutes than most of the hero pool could with nullstone.

Now the buff they gave Withering Presence rather than reverting the nerf is kind of interesting. They obviously don't want to go back to that level 1 1000 range aura again but they've buffed it early game so that a SR who picks it up can better force an enemies to address him and also buffed it slightly in the end game with the radius buff.

SR is so on the borderline I'm not sure whether to say he's OP or not, but buffs should be handed very delicately; most people here don't seem to understand how easily this hero can become bat **** OP.

^agree with this mostly.

People really underestimate sr, probably because they think he's a healer/support for some reason (oh wait, super lousy heal you hardly notice at low lvl unless you also use it offensively).


I'd hate to see sr buffed, only to be nerfed into oblivion.

If you think he is only a late game hero, try building him with stuff like nomes, astro (maybe manaring) etc. You'll see. Could add hotbl (and vests you'd probably get every game anyway) and there you have it, sustainability.

[Tyrannate]

Stick to analysing the hero as is please.

I apologize for the suggestions I offered before. However I feel compelled by your post to once again stress SR's problems.

Judgement and Reaper's Scythe are fine. Both are powerful, and don't need to be buffed. An improvement to either of these abilities would focusing on the wrong areas, like having someone drink wine instead of pouring it on their festering wound. It may help a little, but it's not getting down to business and it would be expending resources in an inefficient and relatively ineffective way. Even if Q or R were buffed, SR would still be plagued with problems and likely never picked.

The area of focus should be his W and his E.

W is not a balanced ability. It's perfectly fine at rank 4, and halfway decent even at rank 3 -- but at ranks 2 and especially rank 1, the ability is just so, so poor. The damage and the range are so pitifully small that until rank 3 you may as well have gone stats, and even at rank 3 the advantage over stats is negligible. Also consider that any benefit in the laning phase isn't seen until at least level 5, and how long afterwards do you have the opportunity to enjoy your aura until the laning phase ends? Investing 3 skill points so that your aura DOES SOMETHING, and then having the laning phase end soon after, just makes SR's early game feel so insignificant and wasted.

Also consider that to max W first means you'll only have rank 2 in Judgement, so you're sacrificing early game survivability and damage in order to get the aura. However, maxing Judgement first is usually a bad idea due to it's extreme mana cost in the early game. I'm not saying that Q should be changed, I think it's fine and that it shouldn't be maxed first anyway. I think aura should be maxed first, it's a good and relatively unique hero design to have an aura maxed first. But to recap:

1. W starts off so, so poorly
2. When W starts to get good, the laning phase ends. This doesn't mean that the aura is useless now, in fact it's amazing all game at rank 4. But we're trying to buff SR's early game, i.e. the laning phase
3. Judgement is not a viable alternative. It's far too expensive early game to use on a consistent basis, and getting Judgement early means W is going to be nearly worthless until level 9. (W is okay at rank 3 in lane, but outside lane it's very lackluster until rank 4)
4. The sparse damage that W deals early game is easily countered by grabbing one extra regen. 90 gold basically turns SR into a low armor auto-attacker

As for E, it's poorly designed (not powerful enough, boring, stifles creative skill builds because it requires Judgement to be effective), it doesn't do anything in a team battle, it doesn't reach anywhere near effective until rank 3 (are you noticing a trend?), and it doesn't address SR's key focus to be effective: survivability. It technically addresses longevity, but not when SR needs it most (1v1 or team battles). Honestly, it seems to want to be a farming tool, yet more often than not it's a waste of talents. Investing four levels into an ability this confused is a shame. It really needs a rework.

I love SR. Once a very wise person told be that we're all geniuses in the areas where our passion lies. I'm not saying I'm some sort of Soul Reaper sage, but I do think everyone who loves SR has a special insight into the hero that people who don't lack. I'd love some feedback from the community, and also from S2.

[PowerBro]

Sticking to analyzing the hero this time:

Here's a list of all the nerfs that happened to the style of hero (Defiler is in the exact same boat):

-Very weak ultimate at level 6. He pretty much gains a 100 to 150 damage nuke with a 1.5 second stun on a long cooldown. What do you want the hero to do with this.

-No 1 point wonder, both his 'support spells' his W and E need multiple levels to become decent.

-His mana maintenance is outrageous. Sure, he can sustain it with inhuman nature but that implies not having the aura prior to level 12 / 13 (level 1 aura = useless).

-Offers nothing in the laning phase. The hero used to shine in conjunction with Accursed but that almost is more because of Accursed than because of him.

-With similar farm to other heroes, is less of a problem to deal with (if disabled, his short cooldown heal doesn't matter, if he has say 15k worth of items, your carry with 15k worth of items should have no problem dropping him with some help.

[[TK0]Vascariz]

People really underestimate sr, probably because they think he's a healer/support for some reason (oh wait, super lousy heal you hardly notice at low lvl unless you also use it offensively).

I have never played him as a healer/support and always as a carry. You do not have the survivability or damage output as with other hard or semi-carries. You almost need a hard-carry to get their hitpoints down for you and a tank to take the focus off you to really shine.

I'd hate to see sr buffed, only to be nerfed into oblivion.

Well if played stats are to go by in the competitive scene then he already is in oblivion. Also it's how the buffs are managed that will make the difference. More than happy to see incremental buffs.

If you think he is only a late game hero, try building him with stuff like nomes, astro (maybe manaring) etc. You'll see. Could add hotbl (and vests you'd probably get every game anyway) and there you have it, sustainability.

Nomes has been my go to item recently with vests but all that gets you is catch up to the survivability of other semi-carries / hard-carries who have skills that do that for them anyway (evasion, damage absorption, blinks). Further, it still does not make your lane presence any stronger. It just prevents you from being dominated out of the lane.

[[TK0]Vascariz]

-Very weak ultimate at level 6. He pretty much gains a 100 to 150 damage nuke with a 1.5 second stun on a long cooldown. What do you want the hero to do with this.

Completely agree. I disagree with those who think his ultimate is fine. It isn't.

-No 1 point wonder, both his 'support spells' his W and E need multiple levels to become decent.

-His mana maintenance is outrageous. Sure, he can sustain it with inhuman nature but that implies not having the aura prior to level 12 / 13 (level 1 aura = useless).

-Offers nothing in the laning phase. The hero used to shine in conjunction with Accursed but that almost is more because of Accursed than because of him.

I think this all comes down to the fact, as stated by Tyrannate, that Soul Reaper's his Inhuman Nature and Withering Presence are useless for the first 2 levels. They need greater presence in those first 2 levels.

-With similar farm to other heroes, is less of a problem to deal with (if disabled, his short cooldown heal doesn't matter, if he has say 15k worth of items, your carry with 15k worth of items should have no problem dropping him with some help.

I have seen how people like to say with x, y and z items he is great late game. Well ALL carries will be great with x, y and z items, the problem is that Soul Reaper has a much harder time getting there and as you state, is much less effective once there.

[[AoLv]LoveIsDead]

Just Personally i think it's stupid that withering presence A) Deals magic damage B) Doesn't Consistently Degen' (Negate natural health regeneration before applying consistent damage) C) doesn't break potions D) Doesn't prevent port key.

Ignoring how bad withering presence is in terms of it not suiting the current burst meta ; with these changes i don't think anyone could say it was under powered or useless...

Having SR as my previous favorite hero, it was sad having to depart from playing him the moment they invent monkey king and drunken master.

Back on topic, this hero screams for a buff, but like you said it's his passives that need attention. A hero with more than one passive deserves to at least benefit from both of them in game, more than just on paper.

As an example, running away from pebbles is bad enough without him port keying to you position and bursting you with 2 spells. If inhuman stopped port key, Even with your terrible ms ; who knows how many escapes you might make...

My 2 cents are just that, 2 cents. :soul:

[[TK0]Vascariz]

Just Personally i think it's stupid that withering presence A) Deals magic damage B) Doesn't Consistently Degen' (Negate natural health regeneration before applying consistent damage) C) doesn't break potions D) Doesn't prevent port key.

I thought it just removed the hp. Pretty sure it's not magic damage?

The suggestion about negating health regeneration/health pots has been raised a few times and is in the OP.

I think negative port key would be overpowered and something S2 would never implement. You would just put him in the middle of your team and it would negate all port-key initiations in 1100 radius! I personally would love it as a SR fan as then enemies can't PK to or away from you but don't think it will happen.

[[AoLv]LoveIsDead]

Portal key still has 100 units more range than level 4 aura, not saying that's a whole lot, and they'd have to be damn careful about it, but they could still get an initiation in (e.g mag ports in then stuns)
Although i'm already sick of portal key being the primary factor to a winning team fight in almost every game i play.

Take for example Mock of Brilliance... That base magic damage aura pisses all over Withering pressence, doing everything it doesn't.
Also There hasn't been a single game i've played where my withering pressence ended up doing more damage than Mocks aura, even to a level 25 fully fed arma/dev.

I just feel i'd prefer if they gave him a more decent mana cost on judgement, then gave him another active (something like Dota's Battle hunger)

edit: also you are right about the hp removal, it's been a long time since i've played him...

[GregerMoek]

The only thing SR's aura has on Mock is that it isn't reduced by magic armor and "scales" with enemy max HP. Mock offers more utility though and more damage early on.

If this hero should be buffed at all I would prefer something with the aura rather than anything else with the hero.

[Lariatoooo]

Buffing the aura won't solve is early game problems, & is late is strong enough

[LordTroll]

Buffing the aura won't solve is early game problems

OBVIOUSLY it will, since you know, people tend to stay in a lane for many minutes early on. With increased range, some heroes will surely suffer.

[Lariatoooo]

no,cause aura does shitty damage early game, but still u are slow,squishy, with horrible attack,mana intensive spell with low range that put you in danger etc.....

[KingIsRey]

I don't feel a 1000 range aura will be balanced at at at lvl 1; enemies will always be taking damage. Atleast with 800 range you can stay close enough to harass your enemies but not so far that enemies can never get at you when you fall out of position.

Judgement combined with Inhumane nature is strong in the right situations that buffing either can cause some imbalanced flash farming. Even if its been said to be "boring", Inhumane nature is still a strong farming tool when used with Judgement.

Ult is weak at level 1. Feel that the ult in general is not great as a single target, 1.5 second ult (even if it is superior stun).

He needs a buff but I myself am not sure if it should be to his ult, his base damage for easier last hits, better lvl 1 aura, ect.