[2.5.16] Soul Reaper

[[TK0]Vascariz]

SOUL REAPER

His Role

Soul Reaper's main role is as a tank carry with a strong finisher. He has in the past been quite strong in the lane with his hp reduction aura and AoE damage and heal.

Why balance?

In the current competitive game, his slow and steady approach in the lane, limited ganking potential and low survivability means that he is unable to compete.

Why slow - very slow base movement speed of 290 which makes chasing, ganking and surviving extremely difficult.

Why limited ganking potential - his only ganking ability is his assistance is a low damage and low heal spell with a very high mana cost and in a gank you won't be able to last hit neutrals to recoup the mana cost with Inhuman Nature, coupled with a high mana cost ultimate that has a stun duration shorter than most lvl 3 disables/stuns.
Again slow movement speed makes it hard to keep up with a moving fight.

Why low survivability - No evasive or damage absorption abilities. Instead you have a low heal ability that is mana intensive. Again slow movement speed.

What to balance?

To make Soul Reaper viable, I propose to focus on his survivability, hp suppression, mana recoup and the role of his ultimate.

Survivability - provides Soul Reaper with a mechanism of surviving/avoiding a gank. Currently, players will pick up items to increase his survivability but in the early game, he needs something.

HP suppression - this allows Soul Reaper to establish his presence in a lane in a unique way by slowing and steadily reducing the hp of surrounding enemies. It is strongly themed, unique and synergises with all of his other abilities.

Mana recoupment - his mana recoupment off creeps is a strong feature of Soul Reaper and there is no better feeling than working down the hitpoints on a group of creeps, doing a 5 kill Judgement and getting all that mana back with Inhuman Nature. It really encourages skill based play.

However, there is no worse feeling than dumping all your mana in a team fight with no creeps around, finish off a hero and then stand there with 0 mana as all your skills are mana intensive and there is no recoupment for killing a hero.

Ultimate - his ultimate is a strong finisher. However, the superior magic 1.5 second stun is also a very strong stun in a team fight. I, and I am sure many have others, used it for its 1.5 second stun rather than the damage to secure a kill. I think the stun component should be improved to encourage the team aspects of the ability.

How to balance?

This will be the main source of discussion in this thread. Here are my proposals on how to balance. I will try to keep this conceptual with intentional vagueness in numbers to prevent it from become a suggestion/numbers fight but more of a conceptual debate.

Survivability - My preference would not be to improve his movement speed or add a damage suppression etc but to balance his other skills that still plays on his theme to increase his survivability.

HP suppression - the suppression as it currently stands is not sufficient to allow Soul Reaper to have a real presence in the lane. To establish such a presence I list a few balances:

Alternative 1: I would like to see a healing and regeneration suppression component to make this more effective in competitive play. A healing and regeneration suppression component firstly establishes great lane control through positioning and allows Soul Reaper greater control in the lane to combat aggressive harassment.

Alternative 2: To play on the Judgment theme, have judgement apply a debuff that reduces healing/regeneration much like Salforis but as a % rather than as a prevention. This will also synergise with his ultimate to prevent heals/regen during the stun leading up to the application of the damage. The debuff would be added via Withering Presence to encourage people to pick Withering Presence.

Alternative 3: Set his aura back to a flat range and increase the % hp removed per level.

Mana recoupment - Allow mana recoupment for killing an enemy hero and also from enemy heroes killed under the effect of Demonic Execution, either by adding a much higher static number for enemy heroes or make it % based like Blood Hunter. It allows you to remain useful in a team fight early game when you are still focusing on survivability items. Further, you can take advantage of the short cooldown of Judgement to hopefully heal yourself back into safety.

Further, it has been suggested that Soul Reaper gets a further effect from the damage dealt by Judgement like further enhancing his mana recoupment or adding a damage absorption shield like Nome's.

Ultimate - Two things need to happen to the ultimate to make it more effective 1 v 1 and also in a team situation.

1) Increase the duration of the stun or make it inversely proportional to the amount of hp left (e.g. less % hp left [e.g. 90% left] the longer the stun [e.g. 3.5 secs] but higher % hp left [e.g. 60%] the shorter the stun [e.g. 1 second].

2) Deal the damage at the end of the stun and the damage is calculated at the end of the stun.

This encourages the use of the ultimate as an initiator and definitely much earlier than usual. The damage is calculated at the end of the stun duration to take into account damage dealt during the length of the stun. With regards to displacement effects like Stormspirit, the ultimate will trigger at the end of the displacement effect.

Conclusion

I hope this thread has positively contributed to how we should approach a balance of Soul Reaper. I would appreciate people to point out any issues and I will edit this OP as required. Especially with any feedback they have from observing or being part of competitive play. I appreciate that two of the balance suggestions above are from the Dota 2 version of Soul Reaper and I acknowledge that here. I also acknowledge the different meta games and therefore have hopefully outlined why they are beneficial and also why the other balances are required.

[[TECH]Gorb]

Approved.

Remember to follow the subforum rules, and agree or disagree constructively.

[[IaF]Skyve]

with a strong anti-carry finisher.

How is that skill "anti-carry"?

Instead of giving him healing or regeneration reduction (which is done by Salforis/Slither) we could just buff his aura again. It was nerfed way back when - and to be honest simply reverting that nerf (and maybe slapping a little buff on top) would put him in a pretty good spot.

By reverting the nerf I mean change aura radius back to 1k on all levels. This allows him for constant harass, which allows Reaper to bleed enemies dry of regen items as long as they stay in creeprange.
At the moment, putting only 1 point into the aura won't allow you to keep enemies in aura range, unless you position yourself very badly (ie, next to enemy creeps), leaving you very vulnerable in order to have any lane presence.
Also, the aura could be buffed to gain +0.3% of enemy health as damage on every subsequent level, up from 0.2 if it's still to weak (results in 1.3% of enemy health dealt as damage on lvl4 of the ability).

Another way of buffing the hero would be to improve Sacrificial Stone to a decent level.

[[TK0]Vascariz]

The anti-carry to me is the superior magic stun and instant damage. I have used it and seen it used with great effect at initiating on, finishing off their carry or preventing the carry from using their escape mechanism (e.g. I have killed many a Magebane by casting my ult early to anticipate their blink and having my team finish him off). Admittedly it is not as strong as Devourer's or Panda's ult (has the benefit of being ranged though) which is why I've suggested the balance above.

But I have removed that comment to prevent any distracting irrelevant arguments.

I agree that Salforis and Slither have healing and regen suppressors but I think it works sufficiently differently from either of them. With regards to Salforis, his ability is a single target complete denial of healing and regen. Soul Reaper's is a slow and steady suppression aura or debuff. With regards to Slither, Toxicity comes close but it doesn't affect healing only regeneration and has a short duration with a damage component. The method of application is very different as well.

I actually agree with the increasing aura range as it encourages you to be more aggressive ESP with judgment rather than sitting back at the tower. Also encourages further investment in th skill. I do agree with you that the % increases can be improved instead of the healing/regen suppression idea. I will put your idea up as an alternative - I didn't add hard numbers to prevent people being bogged down in arguing about numbers.

I disagree with buffing an item to improve SR as there are plenty of heroes tiered above SR (Torturer being one that springs to mind) that would also benefit from it resulting in little net change and it is such a late game item that it does little to assist SR current problems.

[commy]

I don't understand your complaints. Heroes are meant to have strengths and weaknesses. SR is a hard carry who farms like crazy and can single handedly win team fights in the mid/late game. He does not need fast movement speed or more survivability. Stop trying to homogenise every hero please.

He was on the backfoot for a while with the meka nerf, but the vanguard change did a world of good for him.

[[TK0]Vascariz]

SR is a hard carry who farms like crazy and can single handedly win team fights in the mid/late game.

I am genuinely confused. Soul Reaper has been unable to farm like crazy due being unable to compete effectively in the lane and has not been single handedly winning team fights in mid/late game for a long time.

I think perhaps you are thinking of DotA and haven't played or seen a Soul Reaper in a long time.

He does not need fast movement speed or more survivability. Stop trying to homogenise every hero please.

Never said he needed faster movement speed. Just that it explains his survivability. Also I am not increasing his survivability by buffing his hp etc as that would be homogenising the hero.

I am not homogenising the hero at all if you carefully read my balances. Further, his weaknesses stay as his weaknesses - movement speed still low, no damage suppression, no blink evasion... instead you balance some of his strengths in line with the theme of the hero that makes him unique.

However, if you mean "balance" the hero then yes... obviously I am trying to balance the hero to make it competitive.

He was on the backfoot for a while with the meka nerf, but the vanguard change did a world of good for him.

He has been on the backfoot for a lot more than just the meka nerf. The introduction of a new suite of heroes that changed the metagame and also the changes to his aura range have nerfed him.

Do we have any replays of Soul Reaper competitively recently or played at a high level successfully as a carry? I say this genuinely as I am (a) interested in real experiences and (b) always out to learn how to play Soul Reaper better.

[[GnJA]Good_Apollo]

I'll say one thing in that Inhuman Nature deserves to be at least up to par with it's DOTA counterpart, gaining a substantial amount of mana on hero kill. He's been silently suffering because the ricing-hard-carry meta he thrived in hasn't been around in HoN for at least a year or so. He doesn't cope as well as other heroes in a faster paced game.

Soul Reaper is not a hard carry, he's an anti-carry/semi-carry.

[[TK0]Vascariz]

Soul Reaper is not a hard carry, he's an anti-carry/semi-carry.

I do agree with the anti-carry portion. Maybe I should add that back into my OP

[ImmaYeti]

Instead of dealing magic damage with his aura, have it lower max health for 30 seconds by the same amount. Now they cant just rush life tube and then laugh at your aura the whole game. While they are standing in your aura their max health is decreasing and isnt regen-able for 30 seconds. Once thirty seconds is up without being in your aura they get their health back.

[[TK0]Vascariz]

Instead of dealing magic damage with his aura, have it lower max health for 30 seconds by the same amount. Now they cant just rush life tube and then laugh at your aura the whole game. While they are standing in your aura their max health is decreasing and isnt regen-able for 30 seconds. Once thirty seconds is up without being in your aura they get their health back.

I don't quite see the synergy with Soul Reaper's ultimate as Soul Reaper's ultimate is based on % health lost. So we would want them losing hp which is what the current aura is doing.

Reducing their max hp doesn't benefit any of your skills directly. Instead the balance in my OP regarding reducing regen/healing seems more appropriate.

[ImmaYeti]

not true, the aura would then become very useful in the early game lane control phase. This allows him to farm and deny farm in a more effective way. Ult is balanced. If he needs anything its a way to not be countered so hard early by any regen at all. Now he doesn't need to be mana heavy because he focus on last hitting if they are worried about their health being low and tree eaters are not going to cut it in lane to bring them back up. As is 6 tree eaters puts SR out of the game.

[[TK0]Vascariz]

not true, the aura would then become very useful in the early game lane control phase.

Yes an okay early game lane control mechanism but does not synergise with his ultimate which was my point.

It's basically the same as Alternative 1 and to some extent Alternative 2, except that you are introducing a no regeneration/heal component and removing a component that synergises with his ultimate.

This seems to be the case as you repeatedly state that regeneration counters Soul Reaper. I think we are in agreement that something needs to be done about regeneration/healing in the lane. As such, there is no point arguing further as it just becomes a numbers fight about a balance already suggested in my OP.

However, I do disagree that healing and regeneration should be completely nullified as that would be overpowered and make certain support heroes redundant. It should be a % base that is sufficient to cause a headache in the lane but not enough to shut down all forms of regen/healing. Once again, the exact numbers are neither here nor there at the moment.

[bakaxy]

Soul Reaper doesn't need more movement speed or something like this, just revert his aura to the original values with 1000 range on all levels and 0.6%/ 0.8%/1.0%/1.2%.
And additionally buff his managain at the 4th level of the third skill.

That should be enough change for the beginning to make him more useful again.

[[TK0]Vascariz]

Soul Reaper doesn't need more movement speed or something like this

Can we PLEASE dispel this myth?! If you read my OP it specifically states that I am not suggesting a movement speed or direct buff to tank him up or prevent damage.

, just revert his aura to the original values with 1000 range on all levels and 0.6%/ 0.8%/1.0%/1.2%.
And additionally buff his managain at the 4th level of the third skill.

That should be enough change for the beginning to make him more useful again.

I agree it would be the start of the change towards making him useful but it definitely needs more than that in the current metagame.

The buff wasnt enough...
I agree with bakaxy change his aura definetly need a small buff since he got no cc and all...

If you read the OP you will note such a change is already noted as Alternative 3 with 2 other alternatives suggested regarding his aura.

[[BRO]Bohrain]

Soul Reaper doesn't need more movement speed or something like this, just revert his aura to the original values with 1000 range on all levels and 0.6%/ 0.8%/1.0%/1.2%.
And additionally buff his managain at the 4th level of the third skill.

That should be enough change for the beginning to make him more useful again.

I agree with the aura radius change, but instead of buffing his 3rd skill to give more mana at lvl 4, I'd change it to give a larger amount of mana from hero kills.

[Tay_z0nday]

The buff wasnt enough...
I agree with bakaxy change his aura definetly need a small buff since he got no cc and all...
I think it's kind of sad that I cant even last hit when I am alone...
Could give him a faster attack animation so he could orb walk since he got no cc...

[pewpewstar]

If you can't last hit in a freefarm situation with any hero, that's your problem; neither does he have an orb to orbwalk with.

Also having no cc is not a good reason for needing buffs.

[skeloperch]

I would like to see him having a better laning phase without buffing his attack animation. Seriously, is that too much to ask for? Unnerfing (and buffing) his aura is easy and effective. Besides that, you could add a small slow to Q, or you could make E return more mana (from 12/24/36/48 to 15/28/41/54, or make it return more for a hero kill). There is so much that could improve his lackluster early game, which leads into a lackluster mid-game (because let's be honest, he isn't a very notable hero early and mid game, AT ALL), and he ends up having a sub-par lategame, even though he has to endure being a stick in the mud for 30 minutes.

[[AoLv]LoveIsDead]

Just Personally i think it's stupid that withering presence A) Deals magic damage B) Doesn't Consistently Degen' (Negate natural health regeneration before applying consistent damage) C) doesn't break potions D) Doesn't prevent port key.

Ignoring how bad withering presence is in terms of it not suiting the current burst meta ; with these changes i don't think anyone could say it was under powered or useless...

Having SR as my previous favorite hero, it was sad having to depart from playing him the moment they invent monkey king and drunken master.

Back on topic, this hero screams for a buff, but like you said it's his passives that need attention. A hero with more than one passive deserves to at least benefit from both of them in game, more than just on paper.

As an example, running away from pebbles is bad enough without him port keying to you position and bursting you with 2 spells. If inhuman stopped port key, Even with your terrible ms ; who knows how many escapes you might make...

My 2 cents are just that, 2 cents. :soul:

[[TK0]Vascariz]

Just Personally i think it's stupid that withering presence A) Deals magic damage B) Doesn't Consistently Degen' (Negate natural health regeneration before applying consistent damage) C) doesn't break potions D) Doesn't prevent port key.

I thought it just removed the hp. Pretty sure it's not magic damage?

The suggestion about negating health regeneration/health pots has been raised a few times and is in the OP.

I think negative port key would be overpowered and something S2 would never implement. You would just put him in the middle of your team and it would negate all port-key initiations in 1100 radius! I personally would love it as a SR fan as then enemies can't PK to or away from you but don't think it will happen.