Thread: [2.5.16] Kuldra's Sheepstick

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  1. #41
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    Hellflower will suit those Intelligence heroes whom have the potential to output a metric tonne of damage, like Aluna. Picking a single hero and attempting to compare a directly-offensive item and a support/disabling item is, well, quite silly. In my opinion, naturally.

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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorb View Post
    Hellflower will suit those Intelligence heroes whom have the potential to output a metric tonne of damage, like Aluna. Picking a single hero and attempting to compare a directly-offensive item and a support/disabling item is, well, quite silly. In my opinion, naturally.
    Wrong, both items serve the same general purpose which is CCing a target so they can be taken down. Whether there are heroes who prefer one or the other, that doesn't mean that it's "silly" to compare them. That's like saying it's silly to compare ghost marchers and steam boots.

    Both were nerfed because they gave unconventional lineups a better chance of beating those tanky lineups S2 seems to be in love with. With the nerfs, tanks just got a lot more powerful, and that's something this game did not need.

  3. #43
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    Are you telling me that Madman could, pre-nerf, pick Sheepstick over Hellflower, because Sheepstick grants the combat bonuses that favour a hard carry like Madman?

    Both items do not serve the same purpose at all.

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Wrong, both items serve the same general purpose which is CCing a target so they can be taken down. Whether there are heroes who prefer one or the other, that doesn't mean that it's "silly" to compare them. That's like saying it's silly to compare ghost marchers and steam boots.

    Both were nerfed because they gave unconventional lineups a better chance of beating those tanky lineups S2 seems to be in love with. With the nerfs, tanks just got a lot more powerful, and that's something this game did not need.
    He's not totally wrong since the kuldra gives survivability and hellflower doesnt, it gives pure attack speed and damage which makes it an more offensive item then kuldra would, I have never seen a hellflower on a support in competative.
    http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=14134792#post14134792

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  5. #45
    I'm don't usually post in this forum so I'm sorry if I break any rules or alike.

    Also I'm sorry if I repeat what somebody has already said because it was just sooo much text for me and I honestly couldn't be bothered nor had the time to read whilst I really wanna express myself on this topic.

    With that said, I think some of the factors that you need to keep in mind is that a 3.5s stun with a 45sec cooldown spell is MUCH more useful in a teamfight than a 2.5s stun with a 35sec cooldown simply because the likeliness of you using a sheep twice in a teamfight is very low anyways, I can't recall the last time a teamfight lasted 35seconds for me in a competitive game. So, just to clarify, this change was for sure a BIG nerf on the item.

    However, to whether the nerf was needed or not, I don't think the item in it self is too strong however when they stacked up they just became an insane teamfight tool. I like that they tried to adress the problem but I simply think they did it the wrong way. I would much more have prefered if they made a simple max 2 sheeps per team limit like it used to be in competitive gameplay before.

    And I just saw some posts about a madman getting a hellflower or a sheep. Ofcourse the hellflower is a better choice there simply because it gives what a carry type hero needs. mana regen, attack speed and heaps of damage whilst sheepstick gives just a little bit of hp (+190hp) and mana regen. Simply put 9/10 hellflower is a better choice over sheepstick on a carry hero no matter what you are facing.

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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorb View Post
    Are you telling me that Madman could, pre-nerf, pick Sheepstick over Hellflower, because Sheepstick grants the combat bonuses that favour a hard carry like Madman?

    Both items do not serve the same purpose at all.
    Notice I said same general purpose. Just like different boots serve the same general purpose: make you faster, hellflower and sheepstick serve the same general purpose: cc the target so they're easier to kill. The proof is in the details, because you'll notice both items just got nerfed. CC just got nerfed.

    Because of that, tanks got stronger. Perhaps it was inadvertent, but tanks like zephyr, cthulu, etc are more powerful now because they're harder to kill. Everyone who's not a tank is now weaker because the best tools for killing tanks: kuldras and especially hellflower, just got nerfed.

    Also I can't help but notice that you deleted my earlier post in this thread, that the original post was wrong to the point of having false data, but you approved it anyway just because it defended S2. That was very mature of you.

  7. #47
    Try harder to find a conspiracy.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by RikiP View Post
    sol's bulwark and sheep are two utterly overpriced items at the moment.
    yet they are still picked up every single game, nothing wrong with that.

  9. #49
    Because of that, tanks got stronger. Perhaps it was inadvertent, but tanks like zephyr, cthulu, etc are more powerful now because they're harder to kill. Everyone who's not a tank is now weaker because the best tools for killing tanks: kuldras and especially hellflower, just got nerfed.
    The only heroes who got stronger on a relative scale are witch slayer and PWP because their disables are now better in comparison to purchasable CC - and, along with them, most autoattacking carries in the game.

    CC was not the weak point of tanks, the opposite: Heroes like Zephyr do their area denial/aoe damage (+Mock, etc) even while CC'ed, but most auto attack carries, or other types of heroes were 100% shut down by it. Not to mention the objective of the tank is to redirect CC and damage from teammates in the first place.

    The autoattacking carries were always the highest priority targets of sheep, so a sheep nerf has been a categorical buff to all of these carries, and a nerf to the small number of INT carries that would almost always get Sheep and were balanced accordingly. Soul reaper, defiler, DR, Tort were all nerfed indirectly by the Sheep nerf.

    Tl;Dr
    Autoattackers buffed
    INT carries (including the flash farming nukers like midas or bombardier) nerfed
    Initiators, Supports, Gankers mostly unaffected
    Last edited by Antimodus; 03-30-2012 at 09:52 PM.
    "Proclamation was made, in the King's Name, for all Persons to keep Silence" - House of Lords Journal, Volume 20, 24 June 1717

  10. #50
    Antimodus, there's another side to that blade imho, certain heros like dr, tort etc got buffed indirectly as well due to them being less cc'd when being countered with this item.

    And I'd like to add certain key heros like tempest, magmus, old vind, witch, tort etc that can either disrupt your team or to prevent them from initiating (or break their channel), to high priority (depending on the game ofcourse). Not everyone will have shrunken + some things are superior, so sometimes there's no point to disabling the carry when you're whole team is going to be cc'd in some way. No offense, just wanted to add.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Notice I said same general purpose. Just like different boots serve the same general purpose: make you faster, hellflower and sheepstick serve the same general purpose: cc the target so they're easier to kill. The proof is in the details, because you'll notice both items just got nerfed. CC just got nerfed.

    Because of that, tanks got stronger. Perhaps it was inadvertent, but tanks like zephyr, cthulu, etc are more powerful now because they're harder to kill. Everyone who's not a tank is now weaker because the best tools for killing tanks: kuldras and especially hellflower, just got nerfed.

    Also I can't help but notice that you deleted my earlier post in this thread, that the original post was wrong to the point of having false data, but you approved it anyway just because it defended S2. That was very mature of you.
    You don't pick Hellflower on Madman to cc the target so they're easier to kill. You pick Hellflower on Madman for the permanent presence of Mana for Stalk and the increased attack speed and damage.

    At least, that's just my opinion on the subject.

    The silence for annoying targets is the icing on the cake.

    There is a difference between arguing that cc got nerfed, and arguing that Kuldras and Hellflower fulfill the same role.

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  12. #52
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    Archived.

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