you know what.. all what old vindicator needed was a slight movement speed buff from 290 to 300 ms
damn i cant believe how can s2 destroy one of the most unique and situational heroes in the game.
while we got so many lame ass ranged carries like flint, emerald forsaken archer and list goes on.
srsly your attempt to change this hero failed hard. we want the old vindicator back!!
I'm not sure what was wrong with his old aura. That I know any silence/CC stopped it from triggering and that alone already made it POSSIBLE to potentially counter his so called MASSIVE presence (hellflower anyone?). He was basically a hero that would either shutdown some lanes hard, or be almost useless against others (even then his ability to orb walk still made him useful in laning phase against everything). His passive allowed him to actually accumulate some damage throughout the game by participating in fights due to his mediocre farming ability so that he could potentially carry later on if needed. His old Q actually synergized with his ultimate, being able to deal some aoe damage in teamfights after silencing. I don't see what was wrong with him at all.
His current iteration is horrible. His passive is trash and there are barely no heros in game where it comes of any practical use. His farming ability, while boosted, is still rather weak for a supposed carry, which needs a ton of expensive items to do his job (sheep, hf, null), farms slower than most INT carries (aluna, pyro, dr, ...) and is arguably the hardest to keep alive (he lacks any reliable CC or escape to prevent ganks, combined with his low move speed). Don't tell me you're going to use his ultimate to escape a gank; chances are you'll still die if you do that and even if you don't you already blew it for the next teamfight resulting in a win-win scenario for the enemy team.
Guess I gotta come back to this discussion.
His old aura silenced ANYONE who he could see and who was within 700 units of him for a 1/1.75/2.5/3.25 seconds. At max rank this mean that heroes like Midas and MK could not function as long as old was alive. His aura protected his allies as well as himself making it extremely difficult to justify picking certain heroes in the competitive scene as they were so heavily countered by 's aura that anywhere that he was automatically made it a losing situation for these kinds of heroes. All he had to do was carry TPs and any mid that was combo dependent would lose mid as all of his ganks would be unsuccessful (if he ganks 's lane he loses because a good will have strong positioning to protect his lanemate and himself with his aura. If he ganks the other lane TP's in and it's the same situation all over again only worse). wouldn't even need to really farm all that much gold as carrying TP's would eventually pay off with enough turned around ganks to give him a lot of damage through passive bonus int.
The biggest complaint people had about old was his aura. Skills SHOULD be situational. The problem was that effectively countered an entire genre of heroes just by getting his aura. Not particular heroes, but an entire group of them. And it wasn't soft countered either, it was a hard counter. I for one do not think the old should return. I loved him, but I admit he was not conducive to the overall health of the game.
By the same token, the new is so horribly underpowered that he should not even be in game as is. The ONLY situation where he is even marginally powerful is Mid wars, and even then he's really not that great a pick as he has no disables. Let's compare his Old skillset (as a whole) to his new skill set (same as above)
1. Mana burn, but could be reduced by enemy casting a spell. Most heroes could make this largely ineffective after level 3 or 4 making it's only true strength levels 1 and 2. His Aura and ultimate worked well with this as they both prevented enemies from casting and allowed him to keep up his burn and deal the most amount of damage with this skill.
2.) Same skill as before but had better synergy with his aura as it PERMANENTLY stole int.
3.) Incredibly strong against particular hero setups and allowed him to scale as long as he was around enemy hero deaths.
4.) Works well with his first skill and is powerful counter-initiation as people who DO initiate get screwed.
Overall: His first skill synergizes with his ultimate and his aura as well as makes him decently strong early game. His orb was stronger as he had more int to use it with.
1.) More powerful as a farming tool mid-late game, but doesn't really allow him to flash farm like other carries get to. He never gets sufficient AOE damage to farm as quickly as other carries. The CD is too long and the damage too low to be of consequence. It does allow him to build more int early on, but late game it actually steals less int (fewer engagements) and overall moving int steal to this skill was an extremely poor decision.
2.) Same as before but now it scales with his first skill instead of his passive. Problem is, his first skill doesn't every build up much int so this skill was nerfed due to loss of synergy.
3.) The passive friggen terrible and rarely ever does much. I've seen it save a few times, but overall it's terribly weak and doesn't really work with the rest of his skillset anymore. The bonus AS allows him to make more use of his second skill, but without as much int the orb isn't actually worth picking up over other attack modifiers.
4.) Same as before but now it no longer has synergy with ANY of 's other skills. Before the ult was already out of place as always has been a carry (people played him as a psuedo support, but he's always been a carry) but now the ult has no buisness being on him at all. He doesn't get any extra bonuses for his opponents being silenced so there's no reason for him to have a massive CD AOE silence.
Overall: took a big hit to the nerf bat, but not in raw numbers. The nerf that he took was the fact that his skills no longer have any direction and do not work together at all. The previous remake was actually so bad that I quit HoN for 3 months. I really enjoy the game, but I don't think I've ever seen a worse decision done by a group of developers.
What's really sad is that S2 stands by the remake. They refuse to own up to the fact that it was a mistake. If they had or if the will in the near future then it's reparable but as is I still will never respect S2 as I once did.
BUNNY LOVES YOU!
Yeah, Vindicator countered so many heroes. In other news, combocasting heroes have yet to be picked up despite this game changing nerf that makes them oh so viable.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
[1:34:48 PM] cbob: i remember all of those times that vindicator got picked in the competitive scene
[1:35:01 PM] cbob: and how big of an impact silencer makes in the current dota competitive metagame
[1:35:09 PM] cbob: which is to say
[1:35:10 PM] cbob: not at all
pzkw later pointed out that aL pick up silencer as a surprise pick every so often in dota 2; but if he was such a big deal that we have to gut him, then he would have shown up, and silencer still would show up, more than once in a blue moon.
In balance, the burden of proof is on you to show your suggestion a) does what you say it will do, b) won't disrupt balance elsewhere, and c) isn't retarded beyond belief. Until you show these three things, the last may be assumed.
Most of people who cried bout old sage lore or silence aura where those newbies who couldnt adapt their picks/playstyle/item buildups to current situation.
Even though sh countered vindi aura completly they still refused to do it and prefered to lose and cry that its because of vindis OPness.
Thats the main prob of old vindicator - community was to braindead to adapt to situations and modify their acts according to scenario, instead they prefered a brainless games where you always do same lane combos and buy exactly the same items no matter what.
Its funny that s2 makes a lockpick to increase the ammount of strategy in the game + force new hero pickups, while they nerfed to ground hero who was doing the job on its own...
Though the point about situational picks is a good one and there maybe should be more hard-counters in the game, especially with this huge a heropool.