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All the teams that answered to e-mails and PMs that were sent to the team captains ages ago got their money. You didn't answer.Originally Posted by Steve`
It's pretty sad how a thread with legit, somewhat constructive criticism turns into an offtopic cesspool of "OMG QQ I GOT BANNED". Couldn't have expected anything else from C&C lately, though.
It's also pretty sad the OP got banned for making this thread, since it makes some pretty good points. I really really hope he got banned for some other post in this section and not this one.
Last edited by Kolapz; 03-18-2012 at 09:42 PM.
Well it's blatantly obvious that while this game is (or used to be) fantastic, S2 (or anyone over there with some modicum of power) is a garbage company; breaking promise after promise and not living up to any inflated expectation they created themselves.
HoN really needs a 3.0 where they change the game entirely.
LoL is a good game because it doesn't try to copy DotA. It took the idea of an AoS/MOBA and then did its own spin on it. In other words it's an original game.
HoN is nothing close to original. HoN's map is a copy of DotA's map. (As a side note, if you're gonna copy DotA's map layout, at least keep up with all the new ward positions DotA has... I would god damn love this one ward position in the sentinel jungle that blocks both the hard camp and the pull camp. Then again, I guess you can't really compare the two because of different leash timers + no counter wards for 1:30 into the game.) A large number of the heroes are copies of DotA heroes. 90% of the items are mocks of DotA items.
I really wish HoN will continue to thrive, even though I probably will move to DotA 2 when it releases, but not because I think HoN is a boring game. If HoN, LoL and DotA 2 all exist at the same time, that is good. Competition is good. Competition makes each of the games fight to be better.
The problem is that HoN (as I've already stated), is just a copy of DotA. Yeah, S2 is now releasing new heroes that they themselves created but they're nothing "omg this is brand new technology" worthy.
S2, on top of numerous other issues (cash cow, slow balancing, lack of public reasons for changes, etc), will have a very difficult time keeping HoN alive because, from an economic point of view, HoN is just a substitute good for DotA.
Substitute goods are great if the original good is out of reach for some reason or the original good ends up not being as good as the substitute. Sadly, DotA 2 will more than likely be free to play and Icefrog has a (debatedly) good reputation of balancing and listening to his players.
LoL on the other hand isn't really a substitute for DotA. It's a pretty much different game, just listed in the same genre. It's difficult to really overlap the two. Yeah, there will undoubtedly similarities but you can't mistake the two for each other.
In the end, you're left with two games, LoL or DotA. People generally don't choose the lesser known substitute so HoN will just be forgotten and left behind. S2's only option to continue HoN's growth is to recreate HoN. Making "unique" heroes won't do it. HoN needs to be reworked.
I mean jesus christ, why would anyone want to play HoN when the community of HoN already trashes the game and the map from a slight overview of it just looks like a carbon copy of DotA.
S2 wouldn't need to worry about losing players to DotA if HoN was rather different from each other. I'm betting in the eyes of most people leaving HoN for DotA 2, they're doing it because they don't see why they would stick to HoN which has ridiculous amounts of issues when they can just play DotA, the quote on quote "exact" same game but with less issues.
Look at people about DotA/HoN and LoL. They're different games. If you wanted to leave one of the first two games for LoL, you'd be starting a new game. If someone leaves HoN for DotA, nothing really has changed.
God I feel like a broken record but hopefully my level of redundancy has gotten the point through.
edit:
Hell, you can even keep bringing up hype and crushing the hype by not following through but as long as your game is unique people really can't leave it because there will be nothing like it. The only thing that I'll miss about HoN than in DotA are striders. And even then DotA has its own version of striders now. Everything else HoN has, DotA has as well.
If S2 can create some sort of niche that DotA won't be able to replicate, then people won't be flooding over to DotA 2 because they figure it's the same game, but "better". The problem is that S2 ****ed up on HoN 2.0 by not doing anything unique and now they have nothing to make HoN stand apart from DotA 2.
double edit:
In retrospect, my post really has nothing to do with competitive balancing but I had to toss my voice out somewhere so hopefully S2 would read it or something. Whoops.
Last edited by Petunia; 03-19-2012 at 03:14 PM.
I just thought of a (what I think to be) god damn great analogy so I guess I'll double post.
DotA is Street Fighter 4. The game is slow, but the game is solid.
HoN is a copy of SFIV and needs to shift into Marvel vs Capcom 3. The game (MvC3) is fast as **** and people die left and right.
Japanese players (anyone that keeps up with the fighting game community will probably know where I'm going at already), bash MvC3 for being a "kusoru" game. A "sh1tty" game. They praise games like GG:AC, BB:CS, SFIV.
But that's just their little circle of god damn crazy down to the millisecond memorized pros.
DotA has its own circle of elitist people, aka the Japanese, who will bash on HoN for being a terrible game.
But look at MvC3 and SFIV. They're still popular as hell in America. Both games are at EVO every year. Both games have a huge fan base. Everyone knows MvC3 to be a shitty balanced game but no one cares about that. It's a fun game and as long as no other game can replicate its fast based game play with the endless amounts of possibilities from assists, the MvC series will continue to live.
Again, if S2 can change HoN enough to be distinct from DotA with its fast paced game play (hell, even its tanky carries are somewhat unique to HoN, as much as I hate them), DotA won't be able to replace HoN and if people want to play a fast based game with x elements, they have to go to HoN.
And just to add to that Japanese analogy, even their group of elitists have players that enjoy MvC3. Notably the player Kusoru who totally owned America a few weeks ago (http://youtu.be/W7XBncjF4xw). Even elitists will find enjoyment in HoN if the game is significantly different from DotA.
Nah this thread got derailed once you mentioned 28 DOTA 2 keys.
Most people envy you here as you are famous on internet and have so good connections among nerds and a like to obtain those keys.
Petunia, I agree with some of your points. However, for me at least, your explanation that substitutes cannot succeed over the originals is not the reason I am considering moving to DOTA 2.
I have always, and still do, prefer HON's gameplay to DOTA 2. Despite the fact that I like the strategies, heros, and support in DOTA 2 more than in HON, I still prefer PLAYING HON over DOTA 2. And I think that's a really big advantage HON has over D2.
What is and has always been the biggest problem with HON for me -- and I think this is likely true for many other players as well -- is the COMPANY. S2 is disingenuous. S2 is lazy. Nothing S2 says can be trusted because they have shown repeatedly that they cannot be; the latest example is the renege on their promise to never re-release gold collection avatars. I don't buy gold coins. I don't give a **** about what the prices are beyond the acknowledgement that they are often outrageously high.
But I do care about S2's public policies and the way this company conducts itself. Their actions engender extreme distrust and an ever increasing loss of respect. Those who defend S2 always turn to the "S2 is a company, companies make money" routine, but I don't think anyone is denying that, or begrudging S2 money. Frankly, I don't see any reason that S2 could not make its current profit AND provide some level of succor to those who are complaining and leaving the game due to S2 policy.
Yeah, I think I didn't really use the term substitute correctly. I'm in a rather econ-ish mood. Monday morning classes suck.
Really, I think the simplest way to repeat what I said is for S2 to make HoN their own game and not a copy of DotA with some S2 touches.
I mean, playing HoN is really fun at times. The atmosphere of fast-paced, **** talk at any moment sort of air gets you really pumped and games seem to move quickly. DotA can't really replicate that if you ask me (unless you're watching SEA DotA 1 games. Team fights before 0:00, more than 2 kills a minute before even 5 minutes pass, wat.) HoN needs to take this atmosphere and drive it hard.
If S2 can do that, they really shouldn't be afraid of DotA. Even with their shitty business structure/ethic/what have you, if you create an un-replicable thing, people are kinda stuck with you.
I mean, people are still sticking to WoW because SWTOR is horrid and EQ2 is rather out-dated (I feel like I'm going to be attacked for saying that; I will admit that I honestly don't have much knowledge of those games, other than playing some EQ1.)
Hell, even Diablo II is still doing "well". I'm using well very loosely but I mean... Can you really think of a game that can replace that at the moment?
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