[2.5.14] Patch Reception

[man_guy]

Post count +1 in a long-winded way so as to avoid deletion?

[Mord`sith]

Sure Vindi is my #1 and the changes discourage me quite a bit because he was my xfer of my dota fav Silencer...

But what bothers me the most about this is the reasoning I've been reading from various posts, where these changes are supposed to make him a more all around character since he can no longer "shut down" certain other heroes.

But wasn't his purpose to shut down those heroes in exchange for being so damn soft with no mobile CC's? Sure he can shut down pyro/ws/dw/pebs/panda/mk with ease... but wasn't that his purpose? Saying it was good to take that one feature away to make him an equal opponent to a broader spectrum of the heroes is ridiculous. But if this is going to be the case, please change trembles ult so that he can't completely shut down support heroes and while we're at it, change faydes ult/hold for completely shutting down anything that isn't str based.

=O

[NamSayin`]

Maybe they won't, but they nerfed Vindicator from occasionally a decent pickup to complete trash. I dot think we'll ever see Vindicator in his current form in competetive play ever. S2 must really have hated him to want to do that to him.

Also I mean no offense and I'm not attempting to troll, but if months of work has given him a trash nuke and taken away his only good aspects it seems like a waste of time, if any time was actually spent.

oh so funny that we have already seen him getting picked up a couple of times.

[DatAsh`]

Patch was quite nice except the Vindi part.

Idc much about the Q thing - I dont like the change but meh.
The passive thingy...huge topic. Vindi was unique, he was able to babysit early bcuz of his aura and carry quite strong the lategame - there was no hero similar to him...now he is (for me) just another S2-made glass cannon. Imo they need to change a bit again: f.e. silence heroes who use single target spells on him aswell.

[GregerMoek]

oh so funny that we have already seen him getting picked up a couple of times.

So funny that if it was the old version of Vindicator in those games Vindicator would have done much better.

Also funny that you don't seem to realize this.

[[TECH]Gorb]

If we assume that Vindicator continues to be picked in his new form, and/or something is done to make the E worth leveling, what would you say was the cause of old Vindicator not being picked, Greger?

This is merely a set of assumptions. Of course, if the pick rate of the new Vindi falls back to pre-rework levels, we can assume that there are core design flaws with the hero in the HoN "meta".

[GregerMoek]

Half forgotten because of the recent trends not including him. He is also picked now because you can more or less use Q to last hit, something that appeals the players who picked them up recently (Era, Tralf). The thing is, they don't even seem to know that stuns disables the passive, because I heard them being surprised when Pebbles jumped them and didn't get silenced.

So all in all, they only see the buff to Q and they don't realize how bad E is at the moment.

I'm also convinced that every concept can be made OP/UP with the right numbers, this new Vindicator has the tools to become a true glasscannon but beyond nothing but that and something to deal with initiation(ult). The passive is merely some kind of measly protection against heroes that are spell+auto dependant but doesn't have a stun. This is more or less limited to Slither and very few others.

Moreover this "weakness" can be dealt with by having stuns on the team, so Slither won't still be "hard countered" by this at all. The new E is so garbage compared to how much better the new Q is. It is a shame it took a rework to open the eyes of competitors.

For example I've seen them run Nymph+Vindi lanes and just spam Q against Pebbles/Glacius. Would that have worked in Vindi's old shape? Yes, would it work better lategame? Most probably.

40+ attack speed, temporary int steal and silence on auto attacks can't simply keep up with silence on cast (for a longer duration too) and pain-drain early on.

So, what I think is that the competitors saw a new last hitting tool and thought "oh, now you can actually farm with the hero!" and therefore picked him up. Also they saw the temporary int steal as something to perhaps deal with heroes that has mana troubles early on (Pebbles) to lower their manapool to lower than the mana required to combo. Yes, this works in every scenario when you're constantly spamming Q on a target, but much beyond this there isn't much use except a damage buff to VIndicator later on.

[changlingbob]

This is more or less limited to Slither and very few others.

I think in IRC we figured it was limited to slither (who even then can toxin spray, chuck two wards and start attacking), fayde, reordering nomad's ability use and cockblocking legionnaire's ultimate. Everyone else in the game can functionally unload all their relevant spells then start autoattacking, even if that's not the most optimal.

[[Cdx2]ExPreZz]

I'm not quite sure if people are actually complaining about Vindi's pre-patch Abilities being "OP" or something. but this is how it have been going for like 2 years. and to me i think the re-work on vindi should be removed although i liked the the third skill (Gaining 40+ atk speed) rework (Not the Attacking vindi only to silence enemies part ). but the Lore (first skill) on vindi (before patch) was basically Vindicator's best skill, And im sure 80% of people picking vindi is because of it. ( Im not saying the silences are useless, all im saying is that's basically vindi's role in the laning phase which is annoying and harassing the crap out of the enemy heroes on that lane and Shutting down their combos) .


tl:dr :
- Sage's Lore Should not have been Changed/nerfed/reworked
- Glyph of silence re-work for 40+ Atk speed is good. Not the (Attacking Vindi ONLY To silence enemies part)


Edit : Added few thoughts.

[changlingbob]

i think you have transposed the ability names there

E: for all intents and purposes, glyph of silence is now just an attack speed passive

[Veskit]

Hello !

This is my first post on HoN forum.
First of all I would like to thank you for all the good work especially on the tons of new heroes released.
The first bad idea was the free to play thing, but anyway that's not the topic.

The second bad idea for me, is this vindi change. I loved to play this hero, he was just great the way it was. Why did you changed him ?!

Why do you remove sage lore ? it was a great harass hability, not op because it does only work well on ppl with low mana pool. i mean comon, it was a great counter to all those mid gankers like pebbles, deadwood ... i just don't get it ... now it's just a dd with some int leech but ... totally useless. Vindi has no escape mecanism, sage lore was a way to force ppl to use spells so you can get away.

And glyph of silence ?! why did you remove the +1 int on heroe kills ??? i mean it was THE synergy with the hero with his second hability !!!

Now it seems that vindi is just totally useless ... only the ult is still viable... before you could play vindi as a support/babysit with good damage output and good support spells, now he is just useless and not fun to play. like someone just said, he was kinda unique, now he's just like some random heroes.

I mean, i loved some reworks (like keeper, engi ...) some less (can target ra first hability) but this one ...

Also (i didn't read all the comment) i want to point that, like when some ppl refer to your skill level only with your kill/death ratio, you can't say that a hero is good or not only by watching the picking rate (saw a comment of Gorb). Very good heroes like tempest or ophelia are very good and very balanced but are not the most picked. Vindi was not "easy" to play but was pretty much balanced i think (my opinion tho) maybe people tend less to pick slightly harder character to play with.

I would love if you revert those changes, but i'm realistic, there is no chance ...

An humble vindi player

Veskit

[[LsE]Hsssh]

Amun Ra- hero has fundamental design flaws, changing few numbers or when charges are gained won't change that.

Andromeda/Artesia/SS- stat changes here and there. Don't think that Andromeda needs buffs and not sure about Artesia or SS so whatever.

Gravekeeper- same thing as with Amun Ra, design/AI flaws that won't be solved by giving him more damage. Personally i think changes like these are pathetic because then you start wondering if they don't have enough time to fix these broken heroes or can't see problems with them.

Nomad- less annoying to play against but then if he is not annoying then what he is?

Shadowblade- lets give more damage just because.

Thunderbringer/Hotbl- only changes that i actually like.

Vindicator- personally i hated his old aura and think that depth and importance that he brought to the game is overblown. But on the other hand changes made him more bland and generic. So overall i'm sad, very sad.

I think i talked with changlingbob on IRC that Q and E aren't bad skills(but who came up with "brain drain" name should be fired immediately) and would be rather fun and maybe interesting if they were on a hero that actually could use them effectively.

I guess synergy is that when you cast ultimate enemies are forced to auto attack you and you extend silence...?

[[Mana]Farosarg]

My problem with the hero as it is right now is that he is a glass-cannon still and what's worce is that he lacks any mobility to fill out that glass-cannon role.

The more I see him played the more I like the hero as it is right now but I think his E could still be changed to either give him better mobility (For example movement speed after opponents use spells nearby or charges similarily that could be used for burst of speed) or survivability in general and not just in 1v1 situations, which is what he really shines in at the moment.

[changlingbob]

if your biggest problem is of mobility, buy a force staff. bonus: is has a bunch of int on it.

Hsssh: I hadn't spotted the synergy between ult and new glyph; I doubt it matters though as you probably die instantly anyway.

[[Mana]Farosarg]

Aluna also tends to get a Tablet on her and she still has her deja vu and 300 movement speed compared to Vindicator 290. Tablet was pretty much always one of the best picks for Vindicator and now I'd say it's close to being core. Doesn't mean it solves all. Honestly atleast a buff to the movement speed would be in order to get him in line with the others in similar role (Aluna 300, Puppet Master 300 etc.)

[[CMAP]God`]

Vindi wasnt picked earlier becouse when u played him as a carry (which is what he always should be played like) his 1st skill was useless. In teamfights its 100% useless cuz spells are flying around everywhere and lategame just a non-factor.

[GregerMoek]

CM skews balance, that is a fact. End of story.

[foxmindedguy]

I saw the mistake as soon as Zilrax posted it and I was like, nah, foxmindeguy will point it out in some deluded attempt to feel smart. Thank You fox, you did exactly what I wanted you to do.

Anyways, I had a decent sized post but then I noticed your post had less of a point that I originally thought. I agree that his change was to make the hero better for the general public but still as useful for competitors. Now I ask, What is your point of your last post?

Err... Not still as useful? Nomad (along with other melee carries) need to be able to hold their own in the lanning phase. Mirage Strike is what allows him that, with it he is able to pressure opponents into not bothering him too much.

Safe harass is good on not-so-hard carries like Nomad. They gimped that skill's burst potential quite substantially and in return only buffed true strike by a little.

Now if Nomad was considered Overpowered, then this move would make complete sense, but we rarely saw him in the competitive scene. Hell, even in the pub scene he only carries a whopping 44% win.

Simply put, if a hero is balanced and if developers want to encourage playing him in a different style, they need to buff and nerf his powers equally to keep his balance going (whether it be damage or utility or changing both).

PS: Obviously Nomad having bad win-ratio in pub scene or not being picked in the comp. scene is not necessarily a causality for him not being strong or overshadowed, but we can only make correlations with the limited information we have.

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

Drunken Master has a 37.6% win rate and rarely seen in Comp play. Must be UP, buff plz. A month ago, Armadon has a bad win rate and never seen in Comp play. Must be UP, buff plz.

I always thought Nomad was fine. I am willing to admit that I could be completely wrong, but have you done the math on Mirage Strike? I know I did before and the resulting numbers where stupid. Considering that was not the point of the hero, they nerfed it and buffed him other ways. Simple as that.

[[S2]ElementUser]

Worse, these were changes pushed by Nome(?) or who at least vehemently defended it in SBT, under a very terrible premise. Competitively, there was zero reason to nerf/alter Vindicator, because if he posed a serious threat to a certain team composition, then the team in question would ban the hero. That happened rarely.

There are plenty of heroes who operated well under Vindicator (Sven + Slaardar can still initiate really well, and ES is hardly effected since he can fissure/blink/ult vs. blink/ult/silence/fissure. Tempest can play under Vindicator as well since he brings other spells to the table [stun, meteor, push]).

Note: It's already been shown that S2 will continue to disillusion those who work for them, those who work with them, and those who play competitively. If the majority of people begin to agree with S2, it shows how far their culling of disagreement has taken them.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...d.php?t=371247

All S2 designers/balancers are now responsible for the final product.

:3