The only real nerf to vindicator was the removal of old glyph of silence
Sadly i approve of sages lore being removed mana drains shouldn't exist mana drains are inherently powerful and unfun to play against. yes unfun should be a valid argument this is still a game that a MAJORITY of the community plays for fun
LoL is proof that more people play these games for fun then to be competitive so the removal of very unfun things is good.
masters is still a solid very powerful attack
and back to glyph, the new glyph is trash you pretty much have to build hellflower to have enough regen to keep up using masters but you dont really want to build it because you have a bunch of attack speed from glyph so youl want sheep stick but you don't want that because your a hard carry with minimal support capability now. point is youl need more then just 100% mana regen espicially without the int steal wich made vindi into a hard carry in itself.
And speaking of unfun again combo heroes killing your whole team with portal key / amazing move speed over and over and over is unfun and vindicator was a solid counter to **** like pebbles and armadon now we got nothing to fight crap like this there is no other hero i know of that can counter combo as good as old vindicator so now (espicially in casual mode yes yes i know CM but people play it and combo heroes are very very popular since they can dominate)
all in all a solid attempt at mixing up an old hero minus the fact his third ability is now a steaming pile just change the third ability back and he can go back to being an ok semi support carry thing
also i would suggest the first ability be rethought into something else like a CC of some sort instead of this underpowered nuke
just my 2 cents,
Andromeda buff awsome.
Ra nerf not needed.
Vindi is useless atm, played him few games, he doesnt do anything anymore but autoattack with bad dmg. No escaped-mechanic, you just get raped or ignored in teamfights and all u do is autoattack. Unless 3rd skill is buffed he wont see competitive nor pub play.
Favourite teams: MSI and (ex)sGty
"yes unfun should be a valid argument this is still a game that a MAJORITY of the community plays for fun "
but it isnt. bl.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
Disregarding that completely, I can say right now that Vindicator will most likely NEVER return back to his previous form, simply because of how badly designed S2 thinks he was. There is nothing that says though that there won't be several tweaks to this new design, and any input on this would be most valuable.
Why would you claim that I am mad at the old Vindicator? Why would you claim that I have any reason to "silence" the community? Hell, I am part of the community if anything.
Last edited by Ekamo; 03-10-2012 at 10:54 AM.
"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.”
So, how did you guys feel when you had to face a Vindicator and you weren't Swiftblade or Blood Hunter?
Your suggested numbers. 51.16%
Did you even think when you just said this? The hero is a much better place and he needs to be judged more if he needs a change.
For Vindicator himself? I understand why people might not like that it punishes combo heroes and not heroes that rely on less spam but the change itself is silly. They just changed him to some random carry that no one cares to focus. I would rather keep the Silence on the aura somehow, changing it isn't the biggest deal to me. Maybe make his Aura silence in a 800 radius for 1 second every 4/3.5/3/2.5 seconds? I don't know but silence on attack is useless in most cases and it defeats the purpose of having a Vindicator.
Game Masters are not S2 Games employees. My posts in no way represent the view of S2 Games or any of its staff.
"All they do is expound their store of knowledge. They excite themselves with their ranting; their disapproval swells them with a feeling of importance and sick victory, they thrive on spoiling the pleasure and trashing the creativity of others."
The Minister shares her opinion of critics. ~ Kino's Journey
Being silenced may not be 'fun', but if you can tell me what attribute of the game that contributes to your heroes death is fun then I will agree wholeheartedly.
nomad's mirage strike damage being reduced is bs it ****s up his specialty(harassing) he goes mid because he is awesome at harassing and now WDF!
Worst patch ever, yes even worse since Ra came to Newerth.
No but seriously, I don't like the rework and currently I am too butthurt to even give an objective observation.
Q is obviously better than the first skill, I don't get why they changed name though.
E is obviously tons worse, moreover it's disabled when Vindi is stunned.
More or less Vindi is now a glasscannon with niche ultimate rather than something disrupting in team fights that can turn into steady damage dealing. I personally don't like the focus shift from e -> w because after the change (OP or not) his importance in the drafting stage of the game won't ever be the same.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Loving the new Q on Vindi, disliking his Glyph, the proc needs to happen to anyone that hits him (aoe effects or not) or it should be a little aoe silence effect, so that right click carries can be slightly hurtful to their team members if positioned badly.
it's pretty bad right now imo But yay for Brain Drain!
I am strongly with S2; Vindicator before was a terrible concept and so situationally broken or worthless that he did not belong in the game. And as I have said over and over and over again, if he was going to be broken against your lineup, he was banned, 100% of the time. What is the point of a niche pick when his niche is so narrow you can just ban him if he's going to be a problem?
E is weak as it is right now, Q is strong, and W is very strong. At least he doesn't instawin lanes anymore, and doesn't make heroes like Chipper worthless. I understand why having niche heroes is good, but Vindicator was stupid. He always was. Unfortunately, it'd be better just to have changed him into Obsidian Destroyer >_>
Assuming his new Q stacks with itself (short cooldown) or keeps the highest amount of charges and refreshes the time (e.g first time htis 5 players, + 15 int, second time hits only one player, but still keeps the 15 int but just refreshes the time) then it was an overall buff to this ability. His e, i think, needed to be changed, but not to this worthless state. Overall, I'd slightly change (not buff) his e and give him +5 or +10 ms, as he is just way to squishy with zero escape/survivability to be moving that slowly.
Loved most of the changes, especially the kinesis, ra, and vindicator ones. Well, kinesis was more along the lines of bug fixes, but I digress.
I like the new playing style with vindicator compared to "stand there, hope you're ignored, hard counter 3/4's of the hero pool," though it appears the changes may have been too heavy-handed. The nerf to the passive makes it hilariously easy to avoid and Brain Drain has an unsustainably high cost per individual cast.
Maybe switching over to a charge-based silence on attack for E would work better. Or Q returning mana for each hero successfully hit, reducing the strain on Vindi's pool for multiple successful hits.
HOW DARE A HERO HAVE USEFULNESS THAT WASN'T ABSOLUTE, AND WAS INSTEAD BASED AROUND AN INTELLIGENT ASSESSMENT OF THE GAME STATE.
Horrible change. S2 is even starting to normalise old DotA heroes to fit their model for design (everyone balanced along the same axis, fewer total number of capabilities on offer from pool, specificity of picks unimportant).
HORRID change. Vindicator/Silencer's design has always had problems and not everyone liked him - it's not necessarily fun to play as or against him, but you know what? Motorcycles have always had design problems, and not everyone likes them (a very small minority of people do actually) - it's not necessarily fun to ride them, and it's not necessarily fun to ride on the same road as them.
But guess what S2 - just the same as an open air cabin is both the design problem that the majority of people hate in motorcycles (hence inherrent lack of safety etc), Vindicator's vulnerability matched with non-offensive utility was what people liked in him. The positives he could have brought to the game in the form of diversity of lineups and actual "meta-gaming" were immense.
And you ****ed them all; like a red haired man using a rat to wank. This change was wrong on the same level as that.
He'll see use now, but you've gutted pretty much everything worthwhile about him as a concept for the game. Congrats.
Not siding with anyone on the matter, but to be fair, Vindicator still has the same game-breaking ultimate as ever.
There will be a niche for him, just not as defined as it has been up to now. What it will be is still too early to tell though.
"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.”
This is not the LOL approach, this is a smart business approach. In LOL even a lame steamer gets more views than the toppest HON player? Why? Because catering to the needs of the masses is equally (if not more) important than listening to the competitive insight.
S2 can claim all they want about them only taking professional view into consideration, the voice of the masses does affect them.
Vindicator was a disabler, which made the game bland and boring. People want constant action, thus a good change. Now all we need is to work out a few kinks in the hero.
Every hero below has one or more new ability effects, Check them out:
I don't think S2 could have possibly understood the problems with Vindicator when the rework simply stripped him of his good aspects.
It's mind boggling. Also Andro buffs after what just seemed like very recent nerfs?
[EDIT] Surprised at the smart Ra nerf, however.
Last edited by Good_Apollo; 03-09-2012 at 11:54 PM.
So much butthurt for the vindi changes, I thought they were fantastic and what the hero needed. E could still use some fine tuning, but he certainly fills the hard carry role quite effectively now. He has always been a perma ban or trash tier hero because of how he played against the entire pool. Not to mention he was in this weird meshed role that no one was exactly sure whether to carry or support on him. Just as long as his E isn't reverted I'm happy because that was an abomination that inhibited gameplay tremendously.
Ra changes were nice.
Andro buffs not too bad.
Rest of the changes were decent, nothing outrageous.
while we are at it, why not revert back to his previous iteration as well? Damn you S2 for removing that ulti, the reason why kraken is there in the first place. After that change he's useless now.
seriously guys, give it time, it has not even been 24 hours. Try a different play style, treat as a new hero if you must. Just because he doesn't share the same strength/weakness as his previous form (which is what a REMAKE is suppose to do by the way) doesn't mean that he's completely worthless now. Sure there may need to be some tweaks down the line, but it's still too early to make the final call at the moment.
Well, Vindi is pretty much useless now.
Sages lore was beautiful.