[2.5.14] Patch Reception

[[eR]Ekamo]

So, what's on your mind?

Obviously Vindi will be a huge topic for discussion, but remember to cover the other heroes also.
All forum rules still apply!

[[IaF]Skyve]

Lots of "Hey look, we don't really know why you aren't picking them, so here's some free stats" changes.

Vindi rework made his E crap, which makes it kinda obvious that they didn't like it at all.

[changlingbob]

Lots of "Hey look, we don't really know why you aren't picking them, so here's some free stats" changes.

Vindi rework made his E crap, which makes it kinda obvious that they didn't like it at all.

I mean, we know why they aren't picking most heroes, its that the comp players play far too safe and anything that isn't what they're used to is ****.

[[eR]Ekamo]

new vindi is bad, bring back the old vindi this rework isnt working it just dosent synergize properly

And exactly why do you think S2 will ever completely revert a change that has been thought through and going on for months?

You might not agree with the change, but reverting it is not realistic, so it is not even worth mentioning that you want him back to his former iteration.

[[DDDz]Devourawr]

Maybe they won't, but they nerfed Vindicator from occasionally a decent pickup to complete trash. I dot think we'll ever see Vindicator in his current form in competetive play ever. S2 must really have hated him to want to do that to him.

Also I mean no offense and I'm not attempting to troll, but if months of work has given him a trash nuke and taken away his only good aspects it seems like a waste of time, if any time was actually spent.

[Brannock]

Thanks for the thread. Crossposting this from Balance Dump:

--

HotBL change will affect its strength over time, and should help push it into more of an up-front deflection item instead of an over-time mitigation item.

change should stop pubbies from jungling. Not much effect on higher-level play though it affects his lane aggressiveness, and means that he has to cast spells to jungle farm later on in the game instead of just passively autoattacking and having his passive burn down creeps while he regenerates. It'll hit his sustainability pretty hard. Subtly done, I like it.

change is fantastic. I always thought the last round of nerfs was overboard. This is a step towards her old status. Don't think we'll see her in competitive play based on this though.

, , , , , : Meh.

: Whoa son. This has a MAJOR ****ing effect on his gameplay. He's now forced to True Strike to actually apply damage. He can't safely nuke people down in lane anymore with Mirage Strike application, and the change to Sandstorm reflects this - he's now actually a chaser. A chaser that hits very, very hard. This also makes playing him MUCH riskier in mid lane. Not sure the buffs to True/Sandstorm will be enough to counteract that change for any effect on his pick frequency at high level, since he isn't especially amazing at sidelane.

, , : Meh.

: Nice buffs, but not what I wanted to see. I wanted to see a revert of the aura range nerf and a rebalance of Chain Lightning's damage and mana cost (ideally towards Dota2's numbers). I'll take this though.

: Lots and lots of people are really pissed about this, but I think it's a net gain. He was never picked up in February at high level play (except once). It means he's actually balancable now without suddenly shooting to autoban status. I don't think he's very good right now, but there's actually room to buff him without breaking the game.

It also opens up combo heroes to be picked in higher level play. Previously, safe lineups didn't care at all about Vindicator, and that's a huge reason why he was never picked up. It was also (one) reason why heroes like Panda was rarely picked up.

I mean, it sucks that his influence on drafting is gone, but oh well. I never thought the old passive was actually a good idea on a hero, as an aura. I like the idea of the ability and the effect it has, but put it on another hero as an actual castable ability, like Pugna's ward. Only it silences.

[[S2]ElementUser]

Second last iteration of Vindicator Rework had a charge-based E aura silence based on how many spellcasts he did.

It was something like 0.05/0.1/0.15/0.2 seconds per charge. Each Q and R spellcast gave something like 4 charges. Each W (autocast or manual cast) gave 1 charge. Each charge lasted for something like 4 seconds, individually timed & independent of each other. Oh and that E passive in the 2nd last iteration also gave attack speed like this one (forgot numbers), also based on charges.

That one had a better concept than this final iteration, IMO. Design change? Yes, ok. Does the design change fit in the game? Not right now, many heroes overshadow Vindicator.

Not like my opinion matters much though.

[Shadz]

I just find it strange that the silence on E only activates on an auto-attack. General rule of thumb is auto-attack between spells or when your out of mana, or if you're a carry.

What will happen now is in a teamfight, people can ignore Vindi and pick him off at the end, untroubled by his silence unless he uses an ulti, but heroes like Pebbles for instance, are now longer countered.

[[eR]Ekamo]

Not like my opinion matters much though.

I'll return with an answer to S2's change of heart, when I have an answer.

Your opinion is very much appreciated

[man_guy]

Hey, I'm here "balance" changes. Ra and Nomad destupified to an extent. Vindicator rework is really meh not that I liked the original in the first place.

[[S2]Kros]

I'm liking the idea of the Ra change; curious to see how much of a difference it'll make in actual game play.

[[IaF]Skyve]

I'm liking the idea of the Ra change; curious to see how much of a difference it'll make in actual game play.

Unless you used to jungle him - none.

[[eR]Ekamo]

Unless you used to jungle him - none.

There is definitely a difference, for things such as tower-diving etc.

But basically this will make him less brainless, which is always a good thing in my opinion.

[[CMAP]God`]

Ra never needed a nerf. The hero only got nerfed cuz of pubs crying OP when the hero is actually balanced and isnt actually that strong..

[[IaF]Skyve]

It does still procc from hero damage - which includes your own.

[foxmindedguy]

The only objection I have is that DOGKaiser needed to find a middle ground for True-Strike / Mirage Strike Disparity.

Right now, it is a +20 buff to True Strike with a -80 nerf to Mirage strike.

Perhaps, Mirage Strike doing: 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 while True Strike doing: 100 / 145 / 190 / 235.

But I haven't thought this completely through, so don't be too harsh on the numbers, just the idea.

Other than that, love DOGKaiser for all the other changes. Waiting for Fayde clear-vision nerf to 600 / 700 / 800.

[[Cir]Tensler]

Gravekeepers ult changes dont diagnose the problems with his ult, vindicator rework makes 3rd skill terrible and i feel his nuke doesnt do enough all in all leaving him in trash teir. Dont understand reasons behind artesia stat nerfs. Deflier needs buffs but these werent addressed. Ra nerf will hurt his gpm significantly. Shadow blade will be quite strong now and much better for ganking. Andro changes will be interesting for her roaming power.

But those vindicator changes are really quite bad, to make that third skill workable it would need to be changed to an aoe silence around either himself or the target. right now it will be a minor pain and thats all. The nuke whilst interesting doesnt do any damage, might be more interesting if it also drained a small amount of mana per cast but ultimately where it is sitting now doesnt allow for much use of this hero.

But as has been said previously at least vindicator can be adjusted a bit safer now.

[ninja_goat]

where are the sand wraith buffs ?

[BestOfThree]

And exactly why do you think S2 will ever completely revert a change that has been thought through and going on for months?

You might not agree with the change, but reverting it is not realistic, so it is not even worth mentioning that you want him back to his former iteration.

lol. What a terrible argument. This might have been thought through by 14 dudes for a while so thousands of people who liked the old vindicator are just wrong in even making a peep when they see a beloved original character deleted from the game and replaced with another humdrum carry garbage?

What an inane and contentless statement, the old vindicator must have gotten quite a few kills on you.

S'pose you could use your mod powers to delete this and *silence* me and the rest of the community that is irritated about this. It would be the most silencing that's going to happen for a while.

[BestOfThree]

Reverting it is as realistic as saying "Sorry we were wrong" and reverting it.

Profoundly easy to do. Accidents happen. Alienating the base repeatedly with competitors who have more respect for the grandfather of the genre is not realistic if you want to stay in business.