Comments and concerns regarding the hero.
Will we see him in competitive play?
Will he be too strong?
Go wild! (Balance Rules still apply)
"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.”
ive played him quite a lot since he came out and i can say it is possible it goes competitive as it has a lot to offer and huge utility:
TORNADO (Q): disables, breaks channels, aoe stun on landing, gives time for positioning, pseudo escape mechanism, can save escaping allies from a global or huge range ulti/skill by reducing damage taken
LIFT (W): huge damage, helps with pushes and counterpushes (lifting enemy creeps for 8 seconds), helps pulling lane by lifting your own creeps, can prevent juking in trees by lifting them, constant damage by having such a low cd, low mana cost allowing flexibility
SHIELD (E): provides huge defense and damage absorption when nuking, helps you survive huge clashes, can be paired with items such as mock (for a nearly 100 hp shield per sec in team fights), paired with mock helps detect invisible heroes as it shields u when a invi hero comes in range of mock, huge offensive/defensive use when paired with own nukes or troll codex
ULTI (R): Huge aoe damage (can deal up to (10+6)*100 magic damage lifting with W and ulti and throwing them all as it throws units from W too (1600 aoe damage and 500 hp shield for u when paired with E, can turn ganks and chases around
Hero by itself: 600 range with average damage, over average hp and mp (initially) allowing for flexible laning, doesnt need much farm but scales greatly with it (allows for a soft support build or a semi carry/ganker one), average movespeed, being INT it allows player to get utility items such as stormspirity, kuldra, hellflower, etc
i cant see why it shouldnt go competitive, especially as it counters with shield the huge burst damage seen nowadays while also dealing it, can help support, gank and semi carry, can be build tanky as it doesnt require much mana.
In the half a dozen or so games I've played with/against Kinesis, I feel he is ridiculously overpowered. I will bring up the important points of each ability and then at the end summarize why these abilities' synergy is way too strong.
1) Stasis Smash
"Target an ally or enemy to Stun it and make it take 50% damage for 1 / 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 Seconds. Afterwards, the target drops to the ground dealing 60 / 120 / 180 / 240 Magic Damage and Stunning for 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 Seconds in a 300 unit radius.
The drop Stun is not applied to the primary target."
This ability is essentially a targeted stun very similar to Hammerstorm's hammer throw.
Although there is a 50% damage reduction done to the target, there is an important thing to notice: the AOE damage and stun is done at the end of the ability, not the start.
2) Telekinetic Control
"Activate to lift the closest tree or creep into the air, making it invulnerable for 8 seconds.
Target an enemy to throw all lifted targets at them, dealing 85 / 90 / 95 / 100 Magic Damage per lifted unit and applying a 25% Movement Speed Slow for 2 Seconds.
Lifting has 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 charges that refresh every 4 / 3.5 / 3 / 2.5 seconds."
This ability (and his ultimate which is similar) is where the majority of Kinesis' damage comes from.
The important points here are: 1) the damage is instant 2) tree(s) or creep(s) that are suspended are invulnerable for 8 seconds. Oh, and it slows!
3) Inherent Defense (Passive)
"Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Passively grants a stacking Damage Shield that absorbs Damage equal to 12.5 / 25 / 37.5 / 50% of spell Damage attempted to heroes.
Maximum of 500 absorb shield may be built."
Basically the more spells people try to cast the more damage he absorbs.
Important note here: this shield has no cooldown or reset time--for each spell cast the damage absorbed continues to grow.
4) Mass Control (Ultimate)
"Target an area to 'Lift' up to 3 / 5 / 7 creeps and trees in the area.
Activate again to launch all 'Lifted' units at target location, dealing 100 Magic Damage per unit lifted.
Staff of the Master Increases maximum number of units lifted to 6 / 8 / 10."
Very similar to his second ability, just more things to lift.
One very important thing: this ability does the damage in an AOE, not single target.
Kinesis is overpowered because of the great synergy of his abilities and the massive burst damage he produces with them.
The first problem Kinesis has is his incredible presence going mid. Telekinetic Control is not only a great nuke, but the suspended creeps actually "deny" the lane at the same time. While the creeps are suspended the lane is pushed towards Kinesis' tower, allowing him to farm, and when the duration is up and Kinesis nukes the opponent in mid, the extra creeps that were suspended push the opponent's tower--while the opponent is already low on hp from the nuke.
Now for Stasis Smash. The Hammerstorm hammer throw is a fantastic ability, and I am not saying Kinesis shouldn't have this ability or one like it, but the problem is in the synergy with his Telekinetic control. Stasis Smash does three things:
1) The damage from this ability comes at the end of the nuke, which when combined with Telekinetic control makes for HUGE burst damage, which is very difficult to counter/do anything about. If the Stasis Smash nuke happened at the start of the stun, it would be easier for heals, defensive moves, batteries, etc to be popped if the player was skilled enough to get it in before the nuke from Telekinetic Control hits.
2) The second problem is this stun also allows Kinesis more time to pick up trees/creeps because he has gained a charge or two during this time--further increasing the burst damage.
3) Now let's consider what happens when the ultimate comes into play. The target is not only cc'd for the duration, but upon landing, gets nuked by Stasis Smash, the incoming creeps/trees from Telekinetic Control, but also another powerful nuke from the creeps/trees of the ultimate, that is dealt in an AOE--not to mention the extra nuke + stun from any teammates that were too close to the Stasis Smash.
*As a side note, sometimes the thrown creeps will also begin attacking the hero.*
As for a TL;DR: Kinesis is too strong early game. Kinesis does way too much burst damage, especially for early/mid game. Kinesis WILL win mid due to his high damage, damage shield, and ability to deny and push the lane at will, and is an incredibly strong ganker with great survivability from his Inherent Defense (the video shows him absorbing a Pyro ult and DW ult).
I'll close with a short story: I was playing against a Kinesis and I was running back to base with low health, trying to juke into the forest to TP out. Kinesis chases me. The Nymphora on my team grabs an ally and ports in with her ult on top of me to help me out (good job). Kinesis then uses his ult and kills all three of us. And my two teammates were coming from the fountain with full or near full hp.
Oh that and things like nuking 3/4 of someone's hp and stuff like that.
My suggestions: less damage on nukes, and do the stasis smash damage initially, not at the end.
Technically the shield is based on damage attempted, not damage dealt, but close enough.
I'm gonna have to cast my vote towards the op side of things here, I mean with a SotM his ultimate is basically a pyro ult that affects an AoE instead of a single target (also allowing it to go through null stone) while granting him 500 bonus hp. Combine that with the awesome synergy of his shield/mock and his stormspirit but we can still hurt you and he comes out as way overpowered. Personally I think that unless he is nerfed fairly heavily we will be seeing at least 1 pro willing to try a new build instead of just copying pick up some nice wins with him.
I've found him to be on the weaker side. The range on his nukes feel really limiting. Probably just poor play with him so far, but he seems to fall off really quickly.
He feels and plays a lot like a modernized <img smilieid="14" class="inlineimg" src="http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/smilies/heroes_20/Arachna.jpg" border="0">. <br><ul><li>They both have an essentially perpetual slow which makes them incredibly strong when chasing targets that can't meaningfully retaliate.</li><li>They both have a damage shield of sorts. Kinesis' is obviously less situational, but requires ramp-up time by casting spells.</li><li>They both have ults which make them ideal gankers against one or two targets.</li><li>They both have great difficulties farming without <img smilieid="73" class="inlineimg" src="http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/smilies/items_20/AlchemistBones.jpg" border="0"> because they are both single-target only.<br></li></ul><p>However, Kinesis' burst is much quicker and he has a stun/disable. I honestly feel like this is what <img smilieid="14" class="inlineimg" src="http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/smilies/heroes_20/Arachna.jpg" border="0"> should be, but they gave up on trying to bring <img smilieid="14" class="inlineimg" src="http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/smilies/heroes_20/Arachna.jpg" border="0"> up to date.</p><p><br></p><p>I feel that he is BALANCED because:</p><p>Pros:</p><ul><li>Great in lane, especially mid. Can harass easily with 600 range and his relatively-low-mana W & E.</li><li>His damage shield makes him deceptively tanky mid- and late-game with good initiation.</li><li>His ult, when not countered or dodged, can either do 1,100 - 1,600ish magic damage in an AOE with fairly short set-up time. Alternatively, can do the same damage with a guaranteed hit against 1 target.</li><li>Great early- and mid-game ganker.</li><li>Q stun is great for setting up ganks.<br></li></ul><p>Cons:<br></p><ul><li>He MUST CK effectively in lane to maintain a reasonable GPM. He cannot jungle quickly without having to run back to base for mana or wasting his ult on neutrals.</li><li>His damage is ALL magical. <img smilieid="80" class="inlineimg" src="http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/smilies/items_20/BarrierIdol.jpg" border="0"><img smilieid="161" class="inlineimg" src="http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/smilies/items_20/ShamansHeaddress.jpg" border="0"> both stop him in his tracks because burst is his main role.<br></li><li>His disable is single-target, and the stun from it is EASILY avoided.</li><li>His ultimate has a low radius and will only hit multiple targets if they are LITERALLY stacked on-top-of or right-next-to each other.</li><li>Low range on his E require him to be close to the thick-of-it in team-fights.</li><li>No escape method, aside from E & W spamming a chasing-target.<br></li></ul>
I feel that when he lifts trees they should float along with him, and his q stun should have a function whereby pressing it again causes it to drop instantly
those things would make him definitely balanced, as right now hes kind of weak
Huge damage and utility. He also scales really well with his shield, damage and 600 range. Only problem is farming.
Currently, Hellbourne Kinesis mid can ward Kongor and throw his creeps into the pit, effectively denying them. In practice, it's not as easy to lane and do this, but it's a pretty mega power move, though counterable with counter-wards. Legion kinesis can perform a similar feat, basically performing the inverse of the pebbles toss hard camp into lane creeps to pull, but that pull is a LOT easier with 2 people than it is solo (if even possible, I've yet to try).
On paper, he looks like a source of 2k damage. In practice, I almost never have gotten those extreme circumstances, but I have put out a crap ton of damage. I still think he is a perma ban for competitive play though, his skills are just too strong in terms of managing how pushed your lanes are.
edit: Can Kinesis throw lane creeps into hellbourne ancients at all? Legion ancients? I could see both of these working solo, and almost certainly both with a pulling partner.
Last edited by Horizon; 03-06-2012 at 05:19 AM.
Kinesis would need someone else to pull the ancients closer to the lane to be able to throw creeps at them.
I dont think kinesis should be able to pick up creeps at all. It gives you an unfair advantage in the laning phase since you can basically control where you want the creep-waves to clash. If your lane is pushed, just pick up your creeps and let them hang there for 8 seconds while the enemy wave moves closer to your tower.
Removing the ability to pick up creeps would also makes it impossible to exploit the fact that u can throw creeps to die at kongor or even the ancients.
I'd rather have him only pick up trees (or even imaginary objects) than creeps.
Last edited by Mediocre; 03-06-2012 at 06:02 AM.
I personally think that Kinesis' concept is a little weird. He is supposed to be a early to mid-game ganker, on top of that he's got a nice counter-intitation (at least thats what i think his role is).
Now, i've tried to play him as a hard-carry yesterday, which surprisingly worked out quiet well, but you really need a TON of farm for him to work at all, so i don't think this is really viable in a regular/competitive game.
I went Steamnboots --> Mock --> Thunderclaw --> Elder Parasite --> Charged Hammer --> Hellflower --> Barbed Armor
The principle on him carrying does of course rely on his third ability, and on his third ability only. As soon as you have all those items, you don't need any of your other abilities at all (at least not for yourself).
Since his 3rd passively casts a damage-absorbing shield of up to 500 dmg with no internal cooldown from 50% of your attempted spell-dmg (meaning it doesn't matter if it gets absorbed, disjointed or whatever), you will need those items to keep your shield up. In the first place, this item is Charged Hammer. A proc with 3 enemy heroes nearby will grant you a shield of about 300 dmg (which is quite a lot...). For that reason you need a lot of attack speed to have your Charged Hammer proccing constantly.
The Mock gives you a constant 40 spelldmg/sec on enemy heroes, which basically grants you 20 damage absorption/sec/enemy hero (i think attempted spelldmg goes BEFORE magic armor?). Also, the mock will give you a much needed farming capability, which kinesis lacks completely in the first place.
So basically, if you manage to get all these items (and maybe a SH depending on your enemies), Kinesis is probably one of the, if not THE best hard carry in the game because you simply can't kill him anymore.
The problems with his 3rd ability are as follows:
1. He lacks farming tools. He is a horrible farmer with a sub-par attackanimation. He can however get a few easy kills early on with his other abilities, which can enhance your farm a bit.
2. He does need a LOT of items for a reliable use of his 3rd. Without at least Steam/Elder/Charged Hammer, you don't even need to try to win a standoff fight (and even then it is unlikely you will win).
3. One of the main problems is that his shield is only triggered by spell damage attempted on enemy heroes. While of course this hero would be absolutely ridiculous if the shield triggered from attempted spell damage in general (mock and charged hammer on creeps in team fights o.O), i feel there should be some mechanism that the shield triggers of neutrals so you can actually farm the jungle if you can't farm on a lane for a minute. Because of his very low hp, the jungle creeps will basically eat you alive.
4. He is VERY vulnerable to disables, since his HP are very low with this build. If he can't attack, he won't keep his shield up and drops like a fly.
In conclusion, watch the match i posted above, you will see the problems that i mentioned. Also, i think his shield needs to be reworked in some way. I don't feel it synergizes very well with his other abilities. I know it gives him a shield of 500 dmg absorption if he uses his combo, but his combo does not deal that much dmg, especially not late game. So i think there would be a better use of a third ability for him, something that scales his ganking potential into late game maybe.
As a carry, the ability is absolutely overpowered if you have ~350 gpm after 50 minutes. But only then it shines, before that it is pretty much useless.
just my 2cents
I doubt my opinion will be valued for obvious reasons, but I will say 3 things:
- I absolutely adore this hero.
- The shield is too brain dead to "use" for how much work it can do. It's a lifesaver in a thousand ways, but it's a reward too easily awarded. Mashing my buttons should not make me take hundreds less damage.
- His disable gives him way too much time to set up shop, especially since it's got good range and is instant.
I'll let the numbers be up to the people who can actually talk balance, but those are the issues I think will come up later in this thread.
"Making fun of HoN is like making fun of George Bush. It has become the stupid mans joke and anyone with a pulse can have a good guffaw and think they are intellectually superior as they continue to roll around in their own feces." -[DRD]TheSopranosCheck out my HoN Dream Hero here: http://dream.heroesofnewerth.com/hero/Nine_Cloak/Cloak2
Awesome design concept.
Ridiculously strong in some line ups, weak in other line ups.
Have to wait and see what happens with him.
I've taken the time to do this since he first came out. Solo, Kinesis can do the following camp tossing.
Hellbourne Easy Camp
Legion Middle Medium Camp.
With help, he can do Legion Hard Camp.
Obviously he can do any of these better with help, besides the Legion Hard which requires it. But he can do them alone and without boots. The Legion Mid Med camp is the hardest one to do though. Kinesis has a ton of abusing points when he's on the Hellbourne team.
Not likely. Harkons doesn't count because it's an orb on auto attacks, despite doing magic damage. Non auto attack damage is what it seems to count.