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Quite a number of players here ask for +MS or + Range for TB but I prefer not to touch both as to keep the Hero design. TB is design to deal crazy magic dmg and do nothing else. Why not we can go bold and boost his dmg and see how things going? The problem of TB is not "no escape no cc no slow no early game lose to other solo", it is the fact that TB deal not enough dmg to compensate his obvious weakness.Originally Posted by hmontana
IMO, HoN should hold any good Hero design firm and execute it to extreme. Rather than generalizing heroes nor make them evenly good in all roles.
Neither Artesia nor MQ have a Q which last hits at long range while simultaneously harassing the enemy.
TB doesn't last hit with autoattacks. If this is news to you, I'd recommend learning the hero. You go mid with four clarities.
Ok, I've just read this entire thread and it disgusts me beyond all measure.
1) TB is overshadowed by Bombardier because between Boom Dust, Sticky and Air Strike, he puts out more concentrated damage than a TB could ever hope to, at the more critical stages of the game before any heavy nuke based hero starts tapering off. This, in combination with the fact that Bombardier lanes much better than a TB, means he'll always struggle to be in picking contention with a nerfed aura range (not %, range) and if someone is any good at actually playing Bombardier (which most decent comp mids are). Which brings me neatly to my next point:
2) Dependant on a solo lane. So HEAVILY dependant on a solo lane. TB (much like Bomb) lanes aggressively with rune control for early mana. He wins a solo lane by sustained pressure on it, and for that he needs excessive early mana. Until solo mid lanes become a common occurrence, he will struggle to be picked consistently.
The % nerf to his aura was so superfluous compared to some of his real issues, most specifically his aura range. His stats and ms are weak for a reason.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
And i get 1 extra health potion on almost any mid range hero and stand between creeps and you ...
The problem here is the fact that he cant side lane due to pushing up lanes nature of Q, he cant deny so any enemy hero will get almost free farm, and he needs crap tons of mana to get decent gpm making him completly defensless mid since you wont have mana for harassment if you farm with Q.
I highly doubt that TB is missing his nuke dmg compared to other nuking heroes since he can cast his chain light every 2s constantly proccing rod (i would say you can cast it at least 3 times during a teamfight if not initiated on), the biggest prob is that he cant handle the solo lane.
I stay with my statement that his biggest prob is the lack of attack range not letting him get all solo lane benefits and completly countering him in 2v1 scenarios.
Last edited by Fen__; 02-29-2012 at 05:59 AM.
That's what you get when you port a perfect Dota hero and mess up the game with terrible "hybrid-all-in-one" heroes.
Yup.
Zeus is rather strong in Dota, but he does have a fair share of solid counters.
Why is Zeus significantly buffed over Thunderbringer?
Zeus had cooldown's reduced, his aura range is 1000, the game is at a slower pace as far as atk animations / kiting / what ever that it is harder for an enemy to be between him and creeps.
TB is nerfed in many aspects... you guys forget to factor in a few details: He is the shortest ranged hero in the game... This means that he gets all the disadvantages that ranged heroes get from denies and doesn't get the benefits of ranged attacks (when's the last time that a TB kited you with auto attacks...).
His last hitting is costing mana, his late game potential is more or less there...
So uh, your conclusion?
You've stated a few things relevant to the discussions that have been going on in this thread, but what is your conclusion? Does TB need to be changed at all, and if so what?
1. If you pop a pot and are standing in exp range, TB can probably break it.
2. If you can do that to one of the earliest bursty heroes in the game, what hero can you NOT do that to.
Artesias Q can be used to last hit, and can do so without pushing the lane. MQ has a MUCH better attack animation as well 48-54 attack dmg which is boosted to 54-60 with 2 duck boots. TB on the other hands needs to spend that gold on clarities as you said. MQ's Q is also often used to get a couple of creep kills at lvl 1.
This is not news to anyone, but has been addressed in this thread 10 times already. Yes he can last hit with Q, and if you successfully do so it pushes the lane often when you dont want it pushed. A melee hero with a hatchet, can try to deny the creep before your Q hits it at no cost of mana. While you've just wasted 65 mana and didn't get a creep kill. What about denies? Does TB concede trying to deny at all? Hard to do so when you've gotta keep clarities on yourself at all times. What if a strong ranged heros stands between you and creeps? With a mana battery and a few pots? How are you gonna aggro creeps with your short range and low ms?
Last hitting with chain pushes the lane, is expensive and gives your opposition a free double mana pool to dump on you from buying a battery at the start. It also limits your early item choice severely. You can't just say "learn the hero" and ignore all the downsides.
Changing his range to a regular int hero would probably do it, if he didn't have to be in melee range to last hit he'd probably fair better in his various roles as its pretty difficult to snowball with one of the worst attack animations in the game coupled with low ms, zero disable.
Succubus failed in a similar way in comparison to newer heroes for much the same reason and the increased attack range on her worked beautifully.
1. If your bad enough to lose hp pot like that instead of backing up for 9 seconds to maintain lane control for another 2-4 minutes, than you would probably lose mid even to a sand wraith
2. Hm hard one, I wouldnt be able to do that to hmmm, ANY full range hero that would come to a mid ? Ad to that a lot of mele heroes who got a disable and/or a way to get fast near you and start autoattacking hard (dw, nomad, gaunt, pebbels, tundra etc) and Im pretty sure that TB situation is pretty rare. 1 more thing worth mentioning that TB burst till lvl 5 suck balls and most of int heroes are a lot more dangerous.
conclusion
Tb needs range to effectively fulfill solo role.
This makes little to no sense. TB has been proven over and over again in competitive situations to be one of the most dominant mid heroes in a pure 1vs1 situation, and that is against almost all ranged otherwise strong mid heroes. The only ones who really stand a chance vs. him is heroes with high initial hp and that can abuse the fact that he has no escape mech and is really slow.
A hero doesn't have to work like all other heroes to be balanced, sometimes they can be unique in how they work throughout the game. TB lasthits predominantly with first skill, and that is his thing. If it works for him, why change it?
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You are talking bout the times when there was always a SS on mid on 1 of the teams and when tb was getting his average gpm and than starting to snowball after he ganked underlvled trilane couple of times ?
Those times are long gone. There are no trilanes anymore and when going mid you wont face a 0 disables low hp SS, but disable+nuke heroes like poly/midas or a dual lanepeb/zephyr + nymph/monarch.
I would like to see some arguments about your TB winning vs almost any mid hero because atm i cant imagine it. But maybe you know sth that i dont
Actually Ekamo, the game changed quite a bit since the days where TB was hot stuff. First of all, the hero went through nerfs, especially the range vs melee xp difference / extra regen on melees. TB would benefit more of being melee now a day than being ranged with a very short / virtually useless range.
Also, TB lacks of versatility. Line ups now a day often must be kind of flexible and have heroes able to adapt... TB is a solo mid decent hero but a pretty average side line soloer and a pretty bad dual line hero. We would most likely lose to any hero such as Plague Rider, Bubbles, Kraken, Electrician, Torturer, Tundra, Pharaoh and what not in a 1v1 side line scenario.
So, the hero's unique style is an OK mid line, an average outcome once farmed (doesn't have the impact of a pebbles or deadwood with portal key farmed), a poor rune control due to slow speed and lack of disables... so how exactly do you line him in today's HON?
Giving him back 1000 AoE on his Rod and 11% would be a first step to fix this hero. This would really increase his impact in team fights. I feel that undoing the nerfs is the very first step in trying to give back this hero his original glory. Once this is done, we can see if he starts to shine again and if he can compete with the new generation of heroes.
If that doesn't do it, I would seriously consider making this hero melee instead of increasing his range and improving stats and attack animation to reflect this and make him more tanky since he would be melee.
Replay or it didnt happen! Furthermore, was it an MM-Game, a usual public or ClanWar?
Codex is a pure luxury for him, usually he wont ever get it.
Btw. 1 month ago, i was Nymphora, i bought Charged Hammer and Harkons Blade, went 32-2, another game with her, same build 19-0. Nymphora is sick^^. Just a comparison, that 1 or 2 games can show a Hero in his greates light.
Actually, the thing what PowerBro says is true. I played him twice some days ago and also played twice against him. In all 4 games he/i lost the Mid-Lane. Doesn't mean he wasnt viable after that. No, he still does tons of damage that hurt even crazy tanks, Thats why i think reverting aura to 11% is the wrong way.
Would instead prefer to get him the 1000 range on his passive back and give him a bit more attack range.
I also agree, that in his current form, beeing a melee would give him more use than 350 range.(2hp base reg and use of hatchet would make him farm a bit in lane). Like someone said before, the range-buff also helped Succubus to be still a viable Hero.
Was 1700+ game actually, and the harasspower was made efficient around level 3. After that it was just down the hill for the opponents. The game was mainly for a fun note, since I've never seen a 1-62 score in a normal game. Its even rare in Midwars.
And you seem to miss the fact that TB is still a very competent teamfight hero as well as a ganker. If you gank a lane at level 7, they will be around 5. There are very few stronger nukes than blast for ganks.
If you know how the play the hero, you will always do well. Competetive players have shown that in so many situations these threads are getting boring. Why not nerf Behe or Shaman, seeing how DS completely rapes mid these days in higher tier games.
Lolwat? Valkyrie's 2 nukes both deal more damage, and one of them will always stun for longer and provide vision as well. On top of that, Valkyrie's Q can hit for 100 damage more than TB's nuke.
Not to mention Martyr's Q, Shaman's Heal, Devo's Hook, Bombardier's Time bomb, Legionnaire's Charge, and Aluna's Power Throw all deal more damage. If you're talking about overall utility as well, Valkyrie's Javelin, Shaman's Heal, and Bombardier's time bomb still have you beat.
In my opinion: TB is a sub par nuker. He's slow, he has very little CC, he has no escape mechanism, and he is squishy as all hell. All he has is upfront damage, and you know what? Pebbles does his job of upfront damage 100x better than TB himself. TB will never be able to nuke as much as Pebbles until he hits 16. Is this a case of TB being too weak, or Pebbles too strong? I'd say it's both. I know people are gonna call me out on using Pebbles as an example, but I'm still using the argument that Pebbles has higher up-front damage without sacrificing utility, attack strength, and health.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG-g3t97g-g&feature=BFa
This is how ALL ARTS devs balance their games.
And THIS is how you shut down Pimp Slayer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFOH8KrR1xY
Interesting idea I had in a slightly different direction. There's no question that TB puts out heavy amounts of damage. That's his only true advantage - high burst damage on a low cooldown. His biggest flaws are his attack range, his movement speed, and his crazy high mana useage. I don't look at him not having an escape mechanism as being a flaw. There are a lot of great heroes in similarish roles who rely on PK/Tablet for ganking/escaping (Pebbles, namely).
Many TB players will tell you Tablet is core on him (even before Spellshards). This gives him a bit more survivability/chase-power, but still leaves him very vulnerable once Tablet goes on CD. What I think would fix the majority of this issue is to add a charge-based MS buff to his passive (add, not change) where hero damage grants a passive MS boost. This would allow him to get into cast range in teamfights and get nukes off and easily allow him to reposition himself, or back up. This would also allow him to chase while ganking.
The numbers would have to be intensely looked at to not make a Chain Lightning/Ult combo into a free haste rune. Certain things would have to be taken into consideration such as, would it be a static increase based on the ability used, a % based increased based on the ability used, would it be overpowered to make it a static or % based increase based on the number of heroes damaged?
Simply adding 10-20 base MS will not be enough to fix his issues. Pebbles, again, fills a similarish role and has a passive MS boost on his ult, but also has a stun and/or can throw heroes away from him if needed. I understand that Bombadier is probably a closer comparison to TB on paper, though I prefer the comparison to Pebbles as both heroes are slow moving, highly focused, instant damage heroes. Granted, TB's ult puts out a ton of damage, but Pebbles' ult increases his MS, HP, burst damage, and base damage. TB, for being such a similar hero gains no survivability from any of his abilities. A passive MS boost would easily correct this without making the hero godly (in theory).
Other suggestions made here like increasing his attack range, more damage, more base speed, will only divert attention from the problem momentarily, but will not solve it. Also, increasing his attack range will easily make him the most powerful mid in the game, hands down. Played correctly, there aren't many heroes that can 1v1 TB mid easily, now. Giving him a higher range will make him an autowin between any two players of similar skill.
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