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Buffing his MS to 320 would be hella stupid though, I mean a hero with that much damage and also the highest MS in the game?
You don't seem to grasp how big of an effect an MS increase like that would have, he'd be able to win basically any 1v1 lane with that as soon as he hits 3-4.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
^This. +15 MS for Plague Rider made him ridiculously strong early on. +30 MS would make even more for Thunderbringer.
Your talking about a difference in final MS of 5 ms. Combining factors made Plague ridiculously strong b/c with 315 ms he Also had 550 range so he could constantly aggro creeps without getting harassed. A deny that kept creeps close to his tower, coupled with infinite mana and a strong early game slow that reduced opponents ms..Originally Posted by NG_Beholder
TB has 350 range and no way to aggro creeps with it. This is terrible since his only way to last hit pushes the lane further out. Denying is impossible Couple that with his lack of cc and low ms. He is deficient in all areas...
OP Plague had 4 strong factors for lane control
315 ms
550 range
deny creep that also gave him infinite mana
slow
All this combined with the fact that he could lane with any other hero in the game or solo short lane safetly
TB lacks all the above...how does asking for a buff in one of the factors would make him unbalanced?
You are not simply asking for a buff, you're asking for a massive buff.
If he was able to catch up to basically every hero with MS alone he'd just nuke every hero out of the lane and easily so, since he won't be attacking with autos he won't aggro creeps. If you compare him to Plague Rider, Plague Rider has longer cooldown on his nuke and won't use only the nuke to get someone out of the lane.
I don't know, you have to have played TB a lot to understand how big of a difference a MS increase of 25 would be early game. I don't know how many times I've been able to harrass someone out of the lane (1v1) but never been able to get the kill because of this rather well designed weakness(in my opinion)
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Buffing TB ms is really unessecary. Who keeps saying this. I think just a minor increase in stat gain will do enough.
Even if you could ran fast enough and catch up with ever hero. Look at the hero list, literally very Hero in the game, with the exception of maybe a few, has some way to cc tb, blink away, or silence TB and run away. As of right now they dont even have to use those CCs, all they gotta do is run away from you.
The few exceptions, SS, MQ, Devo etc, are just as likely to kill tb running up on them.
On a serious note, reverting the passive nerf, or tweaking it to between what it is now and what it used to be would be good enough. TB with high movement speed would just be op.
hmontana; Please leave balance discussion. Just because other heroes are stronger than TB and that he does not fit in the metagame does not make him a bad/useless hero that needs to be buffed. Other heroes need to be brought back to his level.
TL;DR Balance newer heroes to regain balance with the old ones. Leave the older heroes as they are until newer has been fixed.
Because team mates don't exist right?
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Why dont you leave im here discussing balance
Power Creep + Meta shift + Bursty environment ruin TB nowadays. Each of the reason may affect TB's performance a bit, it yield a big impact as a whole.
Knowing that HoN is no longer DotA Clone, we may still take reference from their balance changes. DotA constantly buff Zeus for quite a few versions (IMO think they are buffing Zeus becuz of Power Creep).
List of buff from 6.68(bot) -> 6.73c(top)
- Arc Lightning level 4 damage increased from 130 to 145 damage
- Lightning Bolt cooldown decreased from 6.5 to 6
- Static Field now affects creeps
- Static Field no longer requires unit visibility to take effect
- Arc Lightning cooldown decreased from 2.25 to 2.0
- Arc Lightning manacost improved from 65/72/79/87 to 65/70/75/80
- Static Field aoe from 900 to 1000
- Thundergod's Wrath Scepter from 355/460/570 to 400/500/600
- Lightning Bolt cooldown from 7 to 6.5
- Arc Lightning cooldown from 2.5 to 2.25 seconds
- Static Field AoE increased from 800 to 900
Personally, I don't really like the idea of buffing old heroes to match with the new ones but that's one of the easiest & fastest way to do so.
Besides, I'm expecting more ppl to talk about Bomb vs TB.
Just so you know, if a TB tried to take mid, i would pick rampage and rape him nightandaynightanday......
Suggestion to improve the replay system:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=14841597#post14841597
As we can see DotA's Zeus is way stronger than HoN's TB
-Lower Cooldowns on Q and W
-Higher range on passive
-Lower Mana Cost on Q
-Higher Damage on Q
-Higher Damage on Ulti with SotM
-Passive affects Creeps!?!
-No visibility needed for his Passive.
Also, i would say most HoN Heroes are stronger than DotA Heroes, so why is Zeus buffed so much???
The only thing that makes our Thunderbringer so mighty is:
SPELLSHARDS!
Is it enough for beeing him balanced in HoN?
Like someone said, TB suffers from extreme level of power creep. Used to be top tier pick in the past, that was before heroes like Parasite or Midas came. He is a high risk hero, but is the reward worth it compared to the other heroes I mentioned? TB can produce a high amount of sustainable AoE damage, but can be easily killed due to no escape/slow ms. Parasite or Midas dont suffer from that problem + they have higher burst, which is way more important. If you want big AoE damage, you dont pick TB, you pick Magmus or Tort, which are ultimately better pickups.
The problem seems to be in design. TB has no solid stun, his burst is not the greatest either and his poor survivability hurts him a lot. So he should be making insane amounts of damage in order to compensate for his weaknesses. A crazy nuker, who is on the other hand relatively easily shut down. Thats the way DOTA seems to be balancing him now. In HoN, however, he just seems sub par at the moment.
tl;dr Other heroes need to be nerfed, then we can observe whether TB needs to be changed or not.
Seriously, TB is like only the very few handfull with no means of complete disable and escape and focuses on one thing. Which for him is high magic damage output. A good tb who uses ult seconds before a battle to reveal enemy locations, does not use it at end to ks etc is such an advantage to your team.
2nd Skill: The most powerful non ultimate nuke? 350 damage with 7 second cooldown. Stuns for 0.1 second (interrupt stuff) and gives vision as well as true sight for a few seconds. This is, like wow.
Overall, he specialises in nuking. Isn't it not balance for a hero who has potential to deal so much magic damage to be squishy? He is fine as he is. Ofcourse you could day well Nomad, Rampage pwns him mid, but have you thought about the fact every hero has counters/weaknesses. TB is very strong mid solo against fragile mid heroes as his 2nd skill is such a great harrassing tool in lane.
Only thing i find weird is his bat needs buff maybe?
But how much squishy? If Midas is initiated on, he just warps out, pretty much same thing with Parasite (lets say there is something nearby). If TB gets jumped, what can he do about it? Nothing, he just dies. I am not saying this is wrong, every hero should have a weakness, but I just dont believe his damage is THAT great to justify this compared to some other heroes.
TB can do high amounts of damage in a team fight, but who on earth would let him do that, if he can be so easily killed? Thats the thing "If you let...". If you let Dark Lady farm for 40 minutes, she will rape you, period. If you let TB stand aside and nuke you the whole fight, you are probably going to loose. But what if you dont? How hard it is to kill TB? Now if you count in his poor farming and terrible lane control + the fact that he is very easily ganked and shut down, I dont think he is that awesome at all.
He has such major drawbacks, that I actually do believe his nuking potential should be higher, but like I said earlier - other heroes should be addressed, than we can discuss whether TB is fine or should be changed.
Thre is only around half the Hero-Pool, who you would send in the mid as a possibility. Squishies are Arachna, Blood Hunter, Nomad, Doctor Repulsor, Aluna, Fayde, even Zephyr till he has his HotD and a lot more. Thunderbringer loses against every of them.
1. His W gets useful for harrasing when TB reaches lvl5, till that time, he has nothing to do against the enemy.
2. From Lvl 5 on, he is mostly outfarmed and outdenied, has a lower level and no rune control...he wont revive again until he gets a gank on the enemy.
He gets outharrased or outdenied/outcreeped by probably 100% of the Heroes you will encounter on the midlane.
Sure, when he is lvl 7 he has a 350 dmg nuke. The other mid will already have lvl 8 or 9 and also a vestment, if he is not plain stupid...Even this advantage is no advantage for him anymore.
I know that buffing TB in a wrong direction can make him such an overpowered Beast! But now, he feels more like an underpowered sheep, high risk, low reward like the others said.
Even if he gets his nerfs reverted the power creep will keep away comps to pick him. Again why would you ever pick tb when u have e.g. midas who deals the same amount of dmg as AOE, has stun slow blink heal in 1 hero.
imo he needs just more movespeed, maybe some attack range increase. magic vestments should be nerfed soon, so he may become a threat anyway.
This and I never agreed with the nerfs in the first place.
My suggestions:
Key Binding - http://tinyurl.com/BindDemItems2
Remake votekicking - http://tinyurl.com/RmkVotekickingNao2
Ability to use item hotkeys while shopping - http://tinyurl.com/DemHotkeys2
Spell shards on TB is overrated imo. It gives dmg and regen, but is negated by 400g vestments. TB needs survivability and escape. I remember when merlini used to play zues competitively in dota, he would go something like bottle/mana ring, steamboots, blink and then breastheart.
This is what i've been saying. Heros with similar weakness earlygame (MQ) have high ms to compensate. Heroes with similar strengths (artesia) have 550 range. I see no reason Tb shouldnt' have one or the other. Certain people keep shouting "OMG would make TB OP! You have no idea what you asking for", but can't explain why....
Last edited by hmontana; 02-28-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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