Your argument could be used for every hero in the pool at any given time.
One could also say that SW's damage output is insane and his ult is useful beyond damage because it also interrupts pk. Still is SW suffers alot early compared to most any other hero.
TB is alot more risk for far less reward than other heroes, and that is what balance is imo, risk vs reward. This warrants a buff for TB, however it may be done. Or a nerf to the competition (more sound maybe).
just be careful.
If you buff him that much,he can be stupidly overpowered.
Just take care with that.
Its funny how i win all the games the enemy goes TB when all you gotta do is
Pick a nuker preferably with a stun or silence
Bam you just won!
In all honesty he is nothing but free kills, i play alot of nukers like and his "high" damage does not compare when laning due to him infernally burning his mana away, and he cant keep that up for long unless he spends every penny on mana pots. I have actually seen people not last hit with chain just cause they were saving mana "just in case" (simply being alive is a feeding risk or something like that)
In teamfights he gets picked out in 1-2 seconds if disabled or hit with a nuke. (everyone switching target to freekill)
He needs a major tweak. maybe do a little fixing with the mana cost and survivability. his damage is fine he just wont ever stay alive to use it to more than 20% of max potential during a teamfight.
Ideas for solution:
-Remove his 3rd skill and instead tie it to his FIRST or ULT
-Instead of being aura based, make it just adds %hp damage to whoever is hit by TB spells
-Insert a pushbook like mini teleport called "Ride the Lightning" as his new 3rd skill on a short cd, gives him chase/escape/support ability, possibly usable while stunned or silenced? could be too much though
Last edited by Urizen; 02-27-2012 at 12:39 AM.
buff MS to over 300. Put ministun on lightning. Buff his str.
The suggestion for charges on his passive is a great idea. The pseudo blink fits his concept as well.
Anyhow you can "lose" mid as TB and recover. Just need levels.
Need more souls.. !
Slap a 40% slow on his chain lightning, add a stacking MA reduction to targets hit by his passive (-2 MA per cast, all the way to -8 MA), make his lightning spell be castable on allies so that it gives them +75 Ms and a short immolation buff (lets say, 15 magic damage per second) for 4 or 5 seconds and make the targets hit by his ult have a reveal/clearvision linger on top of them for 4 / 6 / 8 seconds.
If you buy Sotm the +Ms/Immolation buff is applied to all your allies when you ult and the 40% slow is applied to enemies when you ult.
Then make his attack range at least 500 or more, I mean he has what, 300 attack range? Pff, 650 sounds better, but you know he attacks with these electric balls, so wouldn't it make sense that his passive also procs against the targets he attacks? I think yes.
Now he fits in HoN.
Or at least that's what most people in this thread thinks.
They don't have any clue what buffing this hero's chasing potential would do (with an MS increase to past 310).
I highly doubt that increasing tb ms would change anything.
This hero is designed as a hard snowballing solo laner. I dont see any problem in tb nuke dmg since its really good in almost every situation, even vs tanks if you start to drop them first passive will do great dmg.
My prob with this hero is that why he's designed to snowball because of solo lane, he cant actually go to one. The lack of attack range is just too much. Almost every range hero can shut him down before 5th lvl just by sitting in front of creeps and kiting tb. On low lvls health pot will absorb all of tb spell dmg that he can output leaving him with nothing.
Some could say that tb doesnt need range on lane since he can last hit with chain lightning but the fact is that at low lvls (without passive mana regen items) he just cant do it effectivelly. If you will last hit with your chain than you will run out of mana incredibly fast "disabling" this ability + you wont be any threat to your opponnent since you wont have any additional mana to use blast. Hard hitting range heroes like silhuete or grave keeper could just keep such a tb out of exp range during whole lanning phase.
Although on mid there is some chance to get a decent farm and be a danger to opponnent couz of runes and bottle letting you semi-spam your abbilities (but you need to remember its almost impossible for you to shut down enemys farm w/e he is). on side lanes its just impossible. He would get destroyed.
Another weakness is the fact he basically cant deny, although he can get couple of ck with chain, denyes are almost impossible vs any range (decent player) hero or a strong mele like nomad,devo,mk,ra etc.
I belive that tb should get at least 550 attack range:
- it would let him actually have a good solo and side lane presence
- ability to compete in early game last hit fight
- give some more dmg potential during ganks thanks to autoattacks between nukes
- and overall boost his snowballing ability that hes missing right now
At the same time i belive that because of proposed change he wouldnt get out of control since his dmg would stay untouched same as his mid-late game potential
Last edited by Fen__; 02-27-2012 at 03:44 AM.
I didn't change my mind and can say again: he needs his passive range back, that's it. Maybe (MAYBE) damage nerf should also be reverted.
"I think he needs a ms increase. Buff his ms to 320 (same as mq). This would give him some survivability and chase ability. Also Make either Blast of lightning or his ult reduce enemy Magic armor by -1 per level"
I'm thinking if each consecutive use of one of his nukes, lowers their magic armor by 1 for 6 seconds, stacking the negatives while refreshing the duration would be good.
Also, if the aura (which by itself is already great) added an effect to each of his other skills (the skillset that seems lacking), making a portion of the damage burn mana; maybe he could fill a niche of burst dmg and mana removal.
The way I understand Thunderbringer, in fact Zeus's original design, he is supposed to use Chain Lightning instead of attacking in the lane. At level 1, the skill hits 5 targets, and, guess what, the mid lane usually has 4 creeps and 1 hero at that point in the game. This does push the lane to the enemy tower, but he does it on purpose to win the rune race.
But this also makes him weak in any other lane, because your attack range puts you in a disadvantage is you try to last him. And using Chain Lightning pushes the lane, which moves you in a weak position, since you don't have any way to stop ganks.
You could use Blast of Lightning to fulfill the same role in a side lane, but it's cooldown doesn't allow the same level of creep farm as Chain gives when you go mid.
To solve this problem, Chain Lightning could be re-scaled, to hit less targets early on, so level 1 in the ability becomes a great last hitting tool at the cost of mana.
"I never realised that in order to become a jockey you have to have been a horse first."
^ wouldn't need more of a mana cost reduction than 5 if you're going to make it a pure last hitting ability at lower levels?
The problem with using it for last hitting is the mana cost, you can't keep using it and have any hope of nuking you're opponent directly.
Allowing TB to be better at the last hitting game could be good but I don't think his 1st Skill is the way to do it.
Base Attack: 41-49
Only 10 Heroes have worse starting attack damage than him (tied with )
Attack Range: 350
Only 6 other Heroes have less than 500 attack range and they all have compensation, respectively:
Third skill boosts range; Same and High base movespeed; Massive Range Ulti for positioning; Third skill vastly boosts movespeed; Easy control and a movement skill; Same;
Is vast amount of Damage and his other uses enough to compensate for both this lack of damage and lack of attack range?
(I would probably give him 450 range at Most though, unsure about base damage without looking at numbers even more)
I do wish people would stop suggesting lowered magic armor on his skills though, TB doesn't need a damage boost, its the one thing he does not need.
The problem, if any, is that he's a powerhouse nuker with very little else, which compared to variety one has to choose from in the Hero pool, makes him undervalued.
Just played him again. Lost mid lane against Wretched Hag...denys were not possible cause of the range. Last Hitting was ok, sometimes with chain sometimes without. Rune-War i lost horribly...even if pushed the mid lane, most mid Heroes have a blink/movespeed increase to get it before me.
After that i tried to stay passive, i was on same level as sidelanes.
-My Damage output was fantastic(if i was in range for my passive).
-My farm horrible.
-If i was stunned/disabled/slowed i got killed instantly, and this by only 1 or 2 enemies.
I see that he is still effective in LateGame, cause of his passive. Items on him doesnt change that much, he doesn't have the range to get use of Auto-Attacks, nor does he have an initiation spell to get near or get out again.
Playing him as support is the way to go. Solo Ganks are not possible, cause he cant cc the enemy.
Sending him mid is a kind of waste, cause against most enemies, he will lose. He will get no farm, and ganking is kind of only possible with a rune. In a sidelane he will be freefood, initiating a stun on him...then a nuke and 2 or 3 autoattacks, thats all.
I really don't know what could help him to fit his style of play.
More Range? Giving him sidelane and midlane potential while also making his autoattack viable.
More Movespeed? For Chasing, and running...a stun still kills him.
An Escape? Possible solution, but that will make him overpowered possibly.
An immobilize or slow on his ult?
The things you guys have to know about
high magic damage output
somewhat scales into late game
ult grants vision of every enemy hero
2nd skill has mini stun
VERY position dependent (you seen, you dead)
horrible attack range
item dependent but has no farming potential at all
slow movement speed
high cast time
400 gold :MysticVestments: rapes him
chain lightning is quite useless
I would say is one of the hardest hero to master since he's so fragile and has no escape mechanism (unless from items) and you have to ALWAYS position yourself in a PERFECT spot. If you are found, you are basically helpless and will be dead at the drop of a hat.
Maybe make his lightnig blast into little aoe skill and be able to target hero or on ground (like WS's stun)?
Last edited by MR_BIRD; 02-27-2012 at 10:58 AM.