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What other account? What hiding? What on earth are you babbling about? What is this rubbish?
If you want to be spoonfed an opinion, this is not the forum for you. Barrier Idol takes 400 unreduced damage off his 1700 + passive procs from one round - nice counter.
TB is not just his ult, get a clue. **** it, ignore listed - not worth the effort.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
I don't know how many verbal warnings I have to give before people get the message.
Manner up, or infractions will be given out.
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No i meant 1k dmg to each target because of 2 ultimates. Thought its obvious for everyone but next time ill try to explain it more precise since it seems we'r getting more and more newbies in this discussion.Originally Posted by PowerBro
First of all PK 2150 gold demonic 5500.
Second of all i dont even get what is this part of your post about.
Well i adressed your barier idol and sh at the same time but your to bad of a player to understand it, so ill try to explain it again. Casting double ultimate twice takes you probably around 0.5s, so its almost obvious that any non-korean human being wont be able to react during that time at pop up his item. When talking bout idol we need to mention as well the fact that your teammates would had to be near you which usually wont happen since armadon should be always in front.
And thats another place where you lack game knowledge. If its a late game than people got big respawn timers meaning that waiting 3.5 minute after each teamfight for your cooldown is not such a big deal. Think that respawn timer is sth above 2 minutes so you need to play safe only for around 1 more minute.
Another story is that lack of refresher cooldown doesnt mean tb is useless and cant do ****, he will "just" lack of 500 dmg from his ultimate but can steal provide decent nuke dmg
1. And again your proving that you didnt had ocassion to play/watch higher tier games. I can assure you taht 15k gold TB will bring more havoc to late game teamfights than well farmed zephyr/armadon/elec/ctuluphant. Killing enemy supports/initiatiors(i.e. behe/mag) Is the way to win late game since even 500 gpm carry without his team will just get cced and destroyed later on
2. And again your proving you cant really understand what you are reading. My TB dmg theory craft was purelly about the statement of some people that TB got low nuke potential (in late game) compared to others and that he doesnt scale to late game since items dont really affect him that much. By proving (at least in my oppinion) that well farmed tb can scale very good to late game and that he needs items (a lot) i wanted to influete the fact that he needs his attack range to be increased so that he can handle solo lanes and benefit from snowball potential which he got.
My advise to you is to read every post twice before you will comment it.
Last edited by Fen__; 03-06-2012 at 05:46 AM.
He says 1k dmg to 5 targets, which is the same as 1k damage to ea target...What they're debating is how much additional damage refresher would add, due to blast and passive proc.
He means that if you add a pk (2k gold) to the previously 15k gold build (boots, scepter, shards, refresher) for tb. He could just about finish demonic, since he already included Solsbulwark in his <15k armadon build and output the same amount of damage in a teamfight...
Honestly while TBs ult does great numbers team damage wise, its still dispersed damage. Even if you did 1k damage to a 1.5k health behemoth and commited to a fight, it still doesnt' stop him from repositioning and he can still get his ult off. Its doesn't matter whether he has 500 hp life and dies afterwards or not. A fayde or pyro could burst him down and deal greater single target damage without needing the bulk of the teams farm. While the numbers on Tb damage seem good, dispersed damage with no CC is just not as great as it seems.
Last edited by hmontana; 03-06-2012 at 01:08 PM.
Wrong, first of all are you trying to tell me that if you had option to choose between bursting down 1.5k behemoth or doing 1k dmg to all enemys you would prefer burst on behe and 0 dmg to his team? Rotfl :f
Once again going back to the basics.
1. TB ult stops any blinks for another 4s meaning that your 500 hp behe for next 4s is almost useless (left only with fissure).
2. If you got refresher TB think its more than obvious that you wont cast double ult without any plan (team follow up), trying only to get a free kill on underleveld andro is 1400 pub behaviour bout which we arent talking hee.
3. Why you are saying bout dispersed dmg ? First of all 1k dmg looks as a very reliant burst if it was even only on 1 target and tb does that on whole team (with which we are discussing atm items ofc) ! Secondlly after 1k ultimate burst you still got your 350 nuke and 175 dmg chain which is spamable. Both skills got very good range and let you do 1k + 525 = 1525 dmg to a single target not even factoring the passive.
4. Fayde wont do higher burst dmg, than TB in late game
5. TB can burst down pyro and fayde same as they can burst TB down Oo. Bad example especially since TB is a bit sandwraith like, he doesnt need to be anywhere near enemy team to deal great dmg making him rly hard to pickoff during orginised teamfights/teampushes.
ONCE AGAIN
TB burst and nukes are fine, the lanning presence is sth that needs to be addressed.
lol? in trying to tell you that iflike you said, then Fayde, pyro, Dw, pebbs would be able to do it better with just 1 2-3k gold item rather than a 15k gold tb.
Also yes in certain situations where a tempest ult will win the teamfight, it can be much better to kill that single hero.
If your talking about initating with TB and waiting for followup then yes you could Disable his pk with your double ult. The problem with using you ult to do that is that you've committed to a teamfight without any way of committing the enemy team to it. Heroes like tempest, behemoth, magmus, HB, Pharoah are good initiators b/c when they commit they snare the enemy team. TB's ult will be a warning to the enemy team. Realistically any team with a double tb will want to use if right after their primary initiation, not before.
1K burst with 15k worth of items? Yes 1k is alot of burst but in NMR i have NEVER seen a TB obtain those items. Your talking about spamming chain, and blast on top of that. What team is gonna let you do that? How would you stop the CC? What are you gonna need on top of that refresher/staff/shards for survivability? SH? Tablet? That would be close to half of the teams gold in a real game and i would rather a real hardcarry get that farm anyday.
Fayde will have the ability to Instagib and cc heroes throughout the game, and without needing nearly the same amount of farm as tb. LoL at TB being hard to pick off... Yes if hes nowhere near the teamfight and carrying most of the team's farm, he can put out his double ulti and deal 1k damage. Afterwards the other teams Maliken, zephr, Ra will feed off your team.
Pathetic
1. Didnt knew that fayde/pyro/dw/peb can do 1k burst on whole enemy team. On top of that late game burst dmg of dw is dropping drastically due to constant armor increase. Peb is only 900 dmg so TB even without items will do more burst by using his 3 skills and procing passive at least 2 times (not counting autoattacks from peb into consideration since after 1 autoattack thats not really a burst)
2. We were talking bout behemoth not a tempest which is a lot more devastating if played correct. Beside that if you wana burst down tempest than you can do it with tb. Only difference is that tb needs to be in 600 range and blink initiators got the pk range advantage. At the same time your fayde argument is completly wrong since fayde wouldng get anywhere near tempest in normal game unless she went for pk which isnt that good on her.
3. Im discussing competitive games where teamplay is more than certain. This discussion wasnt supposed to comment how it looks in your 1500 games, because of that tb ulti wont be only a warning since due to teamspeak your team will know exactly when to jump on while enemys wont have that comfort. Another great synergy of tb and initiation is that jumping into base where normally you dont have vision you have around 1s fog before you will actually see where enemys are, but when tb ulti it reveals all letting your blink initiatiors see where should they jump in.
4. First of all if you had any sort of abilities to understnad what you are reading you would notice the fact that i wrote at least 2 times that 15k items TB is just a theorycraft discussion which is made to show that tb nukes are fine and dont need rebalancing. I didnt said anywhere bout spamming nukes but just about using 1 nuke once. Since they got low cast time and high range castin them isnt a prob and combined with double ulti you will do 1.5k burst on 1 target not factoring the passive.
5. First of all sotm gives 400 hp so thats a decent survivability item on TB second of all tb wont get disabled since hes ultimate is global and rest of skills got high range giving him ability to stay in the back and not jump in the middle like behe or mag have to. Because of that your cc crap argument is completly invalid.
6. Fayde isnt capable of instagibing anyone beside supports in late game. Even with a lvl 6 codex her burst is prob around 1800 (without magic armor in consideration), if not factoring the TB rod thats only 300 dmg difference than what tb does to a single target and theres the 4k dmg made to rest of team. At the same time fayde will do **** in many games since half-decent people counter invis very succesfull and getting to a goto target just by using stealth is almost impossible. I belive that the fact that casting all skills takes longer than doing it with tb is a reliable argument as well.
Why am i even talking with a guy for who fayde invis = invulnurability and 1k single target peb/dw burst > 1k 5 target tb ulti Oo
TO ALL WHO WERE PLANNING TO FAIL AGAIN. TB WITH 15k FARM IS JUST A THEORYCRAFTING MADE TO PROVE THAT TB NUKE DMG IS VERY RELIABLE EVEN IN LATE GAME. I HAVE NO INTENTION TO SAY THAT ITS POSSIBLE DURING MOST OF GAMES. AT THE SAME TIME STOP FAILING WITH COMPARISION OF A SINGLE TARGET BURST HEROES LIKE DW/PEB/FAYDE TO A TB COUZ IT PAINS MY EYES.
1. Pebbs autoattacks are burst damage because he can pound your face while you're disabled. Second, Pebbs can instagib heroes every 20 secs. Thunder can hardly do that no matter what stage of the game. A support will stay in the back and you have no way to reach him. DW has means to lower your armor = bullwark, rotten grasp, shieldbreaker debuff if paired with a carry. His ult also goes though shrunken and with PK, it shouldnt be a problem. The debuff is very nice as well. Now, what can a TB do against a shrunken head FA ?
Also, Pyro can flashfarm, semi carry pretty well while offering great lane versatility. He brings a stun, pushing tools and an amazing damage output allowing him to get his items quickly to increase his utility and damage output though autoattacks.
2. burst tempest ? You mean the one who gets shrunken head every game and can get his item quickly by continuously farming, pushing and ganking on top of raping faces in teamfights ? How are you going to burst him down with TB ? Also, Fayde can get close to tempest because of treewalking. But the fact is he didn't talk about countering tempest with Fayde...
3. Sure. I'll get Tundra over TB anytime, though. And he can truly initiate. And, just on a sidenote, he is a true counter to tempest.
You're also assuming that your team will be able to initiate on the enemy. With proper positioning, your ult is wasted because, in a comp game, both teams will make it so they have follow ups and ways to counter initiate.
And again, depending on enemy picks and warding, they might be able to see you as well.
5. You know that pkey pretty much closes the gap that TB is able to create with the range of his abilities ? Fayde can just treewalk to you, others will PK, Magebane and Hag are going to blink on you and it's not 400 HP that are going to help against that cause you still have very low survivability, poor mana regen and virtually no escape or utility during a teamfight besides raw damage (which is okay but lackluster compared to other nukers). So tablet and Hex seems ten times better than Sotm.
Nymph can port any ganker close to you if needed while heroes like nomad won't have any troubles making their way to you. What are you going to do ? Run ?
6. 4k damage ? Right... Now let's compare TB to other people of its kind : Chipper, Hag, Bombardier, Defiler, Artesia, etc... All of a sudden, i'm asking myself : "why would I pick a squishy Aoe nuker with no pushing capability, bad semi carry potential, average ganking, low utility when I could pick one of these guys up ?".
I think you know the answer and suggest you calm down.
So what conclusion have we after this cat-fight?
1. TB is still viable and effective in lategame, even with no items.
2. TB will lose his mid lane to nearly every other usual mid-Hero.
3. TB is not viable in a sidelane(maybe only with nymphora)
So we have a Hero that is effective throughout the game, but is still underpowered(in my opinion).
Why so?
Because, compared to other mid Heroes, he has not the Strength and Power to be that game-breaking by soloing mid like the other Heroes(Fayde,Pebb,Nomad...everyone of this can absolutely change the game).
What shall we do?
Increase his range---> he gets viable in a sidelane possibly
--->he gets stronger midlane power, therefore has more impact on the game than before
--->it makes him more than just a glass cannon nuker... but doesnt make him imbalanced
Don't you agree? Why?
Do you agree? Why?
1. Why shouldn't auto attacks count? Damage is damage. If you've ever seen para, pebbs, dw, fayde gank, you should know that they don't just drop their nukes and hope the hero dies. They squeeze in as many auto attacks as you can and sometimes it takes exactly that much to kill a hero. Tb lacks tremendously in this area.
2. Tempest is most likely to be hiding off in the trees close to his team before a teamfight and a treewalking fayde is 10x more likely to be able to find and kill him than tb whose not gonna kill him with ulti...
3. Yes tb's ulti reveals the other team, but if you are relying on that as your source of vision than thats idiotic. What if you hit R and the other team isn't in favorable position? You've just wasted your ulti. Thats why tb's ult is usually used right after the teamfight has been committed to.
4. If its just theory craft then why are you basing all you numbers off it? You keep talking about 1k unavoidable damage. If you dont have those 15k items, then you dont' have your 1k unavoidable damage, so what would even be the point of all this gibberish?
5. If you think 400 hp is decent survivability at that point into the game, i'm not even gonna address this...
6. Isn't that what we're talking about? instagibbing supports. Isn't that what wins games?? As far as unloading their skills, fayde can stun and then unload her nukes on a target. Tb's target will run, cc, pop that shrunken right after the first nuke hits.
Last edited by hmontana; 03-08-2012 at 04:55 PM.
Where did WE come to this conclusion? Because I strongly disagree with that statement.
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Ok, i came myself to this conlcusion, but others did agree. In the last weeks i saw him playing or played him myslef in mid, together about 7 games.
He lost to: Fayde,Pyro,Hag,Blood Hunter, Defiler, Bombardier
Sure he will win against a Sand Wraith or NightHound, but no1 would send that Hero mid.
Havent seen him so far in competitive, but cant imagine him beeing better in mid, because he can be easily ganked, like SoulStealer.
Because of the fact that you lowbies dont see any difference between
1. doing 1k burst to 1 target or 5k to whole team
2. you belive that you will rape all and get everywhere you want with fayde couz she got invis and tree walking
3. beside the fact that hammerstorm and pesti are a ultimate BURST heroes for you because during their stuns they can land a lot of powerfull autoattacks
4. That you belive that in late game scenario DW ulti will do 900+ dmg because of bulwark (enemys obviously wont have bulwark/nomes/plated greaves and will keep their stats without lvling them so that they minimalise their armor)
5. i wont even comment the fact that no vision is a counter for tb in your oppinion, while peb, dw and fayde got no problem with it (why you even compare those heroes is beyond me, so ****ing retarded)
Im jus quiting conversation with you since your arguments are typical pub behaviours reminding me my yesterday game where 1750 witchslayer got 1 2 1 skill build because with longer miniaturise he do more autoattack dmg - is better burst hero...
Ekamo tb cant rly win a mid lane vs other mid hero played by same good (skill wise) player. The lack of range and the fact that before lvl 5, tb nukes are very low mana effective harassment. The lack of insta pushing nuke or a mobility mechanism makes him lose all rune races as well :/
Yes at lvl 5 you can start harassing with blast, but before that any competent range hero player will push you out of exp range or make your last hitting impossible.
Lets be fair, this argument is largely idiot-slapping, although there are some interesting points mired in there somewhere.
I can't argue with this guy...he ignores all points are made. OMGZ Typical PUB Behavior!
But since this forum is based off of COMPETITIVE PLAY Rule #8, why are you assuming anyone should take your pub experiences for granted? No offense to your personal skill, but I can promise you that you play TB far from optimally.
In high-level games and in the latest real competitive games we saw with TB in he usually wins/won mid vs. all solo heroes that aren't STR melee gankers, from which he usually got destroyed.
Sure, the introduction of several new heroes might have affected him, but mainly he was affected by the change to bottle ferrying (long time ago). Despite that, he still has mana effective (despite other people claiming other wise), long-range harass combined with last-hitting starting from level 1. Combine that with a pretty sizable mana pool and a couple of mana pots and you should have no trouble what so ever to farm Bottle + next mana item of choice fast.
Anyway, I feel this thread is just back and forth flaming, and since he (very) recently got some sizable buffs, I proclaim this thread closed.
Any further discussion regarding my post above should be held in Balance Dump.
"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.”Forum Moderators are not S2 Games employees. My posts in no way represent the view of S2 Games or any of its staff.
Please use the report post function
Check the Sticky Threads for additional information on this sub-forum and the Announcement Threads for more information about Heroes of Newerth as a whole!
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