|
|
I agree with Skeloperch... what people seem to forget is that the day he was first pick material, the hero was no 'subpar nuker'... he was 1 of the if not the stronger AOE nuker with a decent single target potential...
Now, he's just subpar single target, subpar AoE... the 700 really hurts him as he is the kind of hero that stays back and spams his spells... he isn't meant to be in the middle of the fight.
How's this hero easily 1 of the best solo mid in the game? With or without his burst, he has no rune control, no real disable to be efficient as a ganker and there is no more trilane to kill at level 6 by simply pushing R when your trilane initiate.Originally Posted by Jenova26
Am sorry, but TB's strength never really been the winning mid part but more the winning the rest of the game by surviving early on and demolishing the other team in teamfights with his 1k AoE 11% passive...
Again i agree.
The thing is, i noticed there is nearly no difference between a hard farmed TB who owned mid, and a subpar farmed TB who got his core items.
That farmed TB doesnt seem to be more of a threat than the not so much farmed one. He is still dead, when he gets targeted and he still does only Spell-Damage because his Attack-Range is minimal.
He is really more of a Hero like: I will lose my lane, but i am still effective...is a bit like Witch Slayer or Andromeda in that case and sounds more like the perfect Support Hero(except from the losing lane^^).
Anyone else feels same?
So increasing his Attack Range would not only improve his early-lane phase. It also will improve his Lategame and give him more reward for dominating, because his auto-attacks get viable. And thats what we all wanted, didnt we?
More risk/reward, more snowballing!
I feel like the intention of Zues/TB was to create a very strong nuker, and in a sense they put all their eggs in one basket. He has poor ms, no escape mech, poor auto attack range, but makes up for it with the best damage in the game. At one point
The first hero to kind of knock tb off his throne was. Bomb offered more or less the same burst damage, a global nuke, but tons mroe utility. The drawbacks that tb had for his burst werent nearly as bad on bomba. Every burster that is picked up nowadays (mostly midas) can do similar levels of damage but also has tons more utility.
Also,chrysalis also wrecks tb. and the dual mid also destroys him. those are a few other factors.
Balancing him will be pretty tough. The only options would be to give him more utility/less drawbacks (ms buff, -magic armor on target for x amount of seconds to help teammates, etc) or to make his burst extraordinary again, which i dont think we want to see.
Ofcourse =_=
because Valks Javelin has a chance to miss and it has a 25 sec cooldown. Her other nuke only does more damage if it hits again.
Martyr requires you to be lower hp to deal more damage.
Devo Hook also can miss and not spamable
Bombs Time bomb is not instant
Etc
I think comparing to heroes like Pebbles and Deadwood is highly irrelevant. They all rely on high burst damage, but they apply it in completely different ways.
What TB can do and NO ONE ELSE can do, not even Bomb, is apply high near instant burst damage from high range with pretty much 100% reliability.
If we just compare numbers without giving the whole picture, I would have to say I agree with TB being completely useless, since a lot of heroes de facto deal more burst damage than him. But HOW it is applied must also be factored in, and that is why I believe TB can absolutely be a valuable asset to his team, even in his current iteration. According to me, he probably doesn't need a lot, if anything to start being picked up again.
"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.”Forum Moderators are not S2 Games employees. My posts in no way represent the view of S2 Games or any of its staff.
Please use the report post functionto have me review a post that you believe is breaking the Forum Rules.
Check the Sticky Threads for additional information on this sub-forum and the Announcement Threads for more information about Heroes of Newerth as a whole!
-----------------------------
Also, while Bombardier can assist with a gank from afar, he has no reliable way of preventing his ganking teammates from getting PK-jumped right after. TB can do this fairly decently.
TB has shorter cooldown and instant damage instead of delayed damage. Also more spammable nuke that can potentially deal 130*5 + passive hero damage per cast. Sure, this is spread out damage but it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. The radius decrease that happened about a year ago reduced the overall effectiveness of the passive in terms of hitting other targets than your main target however.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
The aura decrease meant that you needed to cast on the back target to ensure that you hit as many people as possible with the passive, due to the cast range. Mega decrease in spacing, and thus mega decrease in effectiveness and overall damage able to be put out.
Bomb doesn't have 100% reliability, but then again, Bomb doesn't need 100% reliability because anything slightly stronger than a 1 sec stun, and some pre-meditation means you're smacking the targets with 550dmg(200/275/350 per bomb?) in the midgame.
For a very minimal tradeoff in reliability that is easily overcome, Bomb gets a lot more burst damage and laning strength.
PK disruption is a gimmick at best, and very much an incidental effect of TB's ult.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
Well man I would say that tb beside chipper is a nuker-hero that benefits the most of getting items. Spellshard + staff + resto stone is monster like if you get it. Sure its very hard near impossible to get it but with this 3 items you are doing 1k global unavoidable dmg. Imagine if you got pk on top of that jumped in the middle of enemys and procced 2x your passive durign that double ult.
Anyway in more realistic scenarios. Items on TB are very important. TB is a type of nuker who can input constant nuke dmg. That 2s cooldown on chainlightning is godlike if your take into consideration lightning rod. Because of that the more hp items you got the more dmg you will inflict during teamfights. Trust me there's a huge gap in effectivness between tb with spellshards and powersupply and a steamboots/ghost marchers + sotm
Yes he is, but same as Witchslayer with pk, TBs effectivness greatlly increase with items.
I still belive that biggest tb problem is that he cant rly benefit from a solo lane since he will get outmatched. The nuking potential of TB is good and very balanced in my oppinion and tb is one of not many nukers who continue to be reasonably effective in late game.
As far as I know it is something you think about though if you actually communicate with your team mates from across the map. That's one of the "dangers" related to ganking something that has a Pebbles or similar on their team. It all depends on situation but it's still worth mentioning in my opinion as something TB has on Bomb. The same goes with team fights and initiation, it is slightly similar to what mock SW used to do. Without the free teleport and stuff that is.
I'd also say that TB smacks people with 550 damage too, as chain lightning hits for around 85 and Blast hits for 100/175/275/350+ passive*2. That is an instant effect. What bomb has is the AoE and a better ult(in many cases) when it comes to actual damage output. Otherwise one could say that while you wait for the bomb's delayed damage TB could squeeze in another Blast or at least two chain lightnings.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
The 550 figure is just Bomb's ult. If you want to factor in Sticky and Boom Dust as well (or Bombardment, depending upon your levelling needs), then TB is hard-pressed to match that since passive * 2 really doesn't measure up to much, except much later on in the game.
Also, you grossly exaggerate how much time it takes for Bomb's ult to land. 2 CL's within the time it takes to ult? Lolnope.
And here's the ultimate kicker: Even if TB's burst output was on the level of Bomb's, Bomb still has a delayed stun, an AoE slow and a much easier time clearing creep waves, as well as being able to eat Nullstone charges at a whim.
TB's damage or ability to space needs to be on the same level as those benefits, else Bomb wins _every_ _single_ _time_. (like we saw back when they were being picked)
Bomb has remained on a higher level than TB since his inception, and they are both viable and unviable for the exact same reasons/conditions. They rise and fall together, so to speak. TB has situational uses with true sight, and could be brought more to the fore with an overhaul of true sight mechanics and invisibility in general, but still a very niche situation. Bombardier needs to be nerfed further if you ever want TB to see the light of day relative to him consistently.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
I thought you were referring to Sticky Bomb. As the damage is similar when leveling it.
I was talking about the skills outside ult use.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Looking at the suggestions... TB with 600 range would be better, no doubt about that, but he still would not be what TB used to be.
TB used to be the hardest AoE magic damage hero in the game. This is what he used to be, not a burst hero... His single target burst is OK but this is mainly due to the fact that the hero had nothing else... but his strength really was the AoE potential.
They nerfed the nature of the hero by nerfing his rod. It might seem like a good idea back in the days when TB was used a lot to fight SS in mid... but you know what, both got nerfs and both disappeared.
I really want his rod to be back to 1000 AoE more than anything else... putting more heroes to 500-600 range isn't the way to keep having variety and 'special' heroes relying on shorter range and no escape and being reliable.
PS: to whom ever mentioned the Spell shard, SotM, Resto stone... This is:
1500 for boots (what ever boots you finish first), SS is 4575, Sotm is 4200, Resto is 5200. So, for 15475 gold, you can deal about 1000 damage to every hero that does not have a shrunken head, a shaman's headrest, you will still be squishy and have all that on a 3.5 minutes timer.
Meanwhile, let's look at what your community armadon will be running with:
Plated greaves: 1303, HotBL: 2225, Barrier Idol: 3653, Behemoth Heart: 5500, Sol's bullwark: 2000. Total: 14681 gold.
I picked armadon but it could been virtually any tank... Barrier Idol would just virtually nullify the restoration stone by itself. The hero will be virtually unkillable and able to output near as much damage as TB can. with 15,000 gold... at least mention me a TB with spell shards, Totem, tablet, Boots of travel and a shrunken head... not some gimmicky build that can work extremely well in 1 out of 25 games.
Anyway, I seriously hope S2 takes some time to wonder about TB...
350 + 130 + 460 + 3 passive procs TWICE over with Spellshards. 1000 damage? ***** please, calc.exe is calling.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
@ Anahka:
He was just talking about the ultimate:
'Sure its very hard near impossible to get it but with this 3 items you are doing 1k global unavoidable dmg.'
Unless his 350 and 130 are now global as well?
460+passive twice with spell shard does equal nearly 1000 damage to each target...
/Calc.exe close.
Passive is global now?
Also, as entirely for reference, zeus is considerably stronger in dota than when thunderbringer was originally ported, having lower cooldowns, better mana usage and so forth all over the shop. While this isn't the be all and end all of reasons to change thunderbringer, it should be considered that zeus was, at some point, considered the high point of magic nuking. Considering the divergence between hon and dota, hon's heroes are, in very general terms, tougher than dota heroes, and some heroes have been added that are as good or better than thunderbringer at magic nuking.
With that said, thunderbringer still brings %maxhp damage at a not-inconsiderable range to the table, which is still potent. In keeping with what I say about almost every change, we should look to nerf rather than to buff, to avoid the unending circlejerk of upwards buffs. Obviously the immediate comparison is bombadier, who could probably do with some attention downward. Failing that, keeping with thunderbringer's strengths of %hp damage and a global nuke that hits everyone is better than buffing him to be good everywhere, and buffs should be directed there.
Notably, a range buff on autoattacks has a major knock on effect. Given thunderbringer's use of chain lightning to last hit and harrass at the same time, buffing his autoattacks doesn't actually aid his early laning at all. What it does do is give him more mana to unload in the late laning phase for kills, which probably isn't a great thing to encourage, given that part of the skill of using a hero like thunderbringer is managing mana so you can do just that; buffing his attack range would effectively be a double buff.
Incidentally, its this kind of justification you should be using when making a suggestion like that, instead of 'needs 500 range to handle solo lanes'; he doesn't, you need to improve your play of thunderbringer.
Imo, Tb should just go through a partial redesign as he is pretty hard to balance because of his global presence and reliable skills opposed to being squishy and unprotected while having low utility, weak pushing power, weak farming ability. In fact, he often doesn't compare to other heroes.
- Low utility for a ganker (DW, Devo, Witchslayer, Chipper, Magmus, roaming support, etc..)
- Powerful but somewhat underwhelming nuker (parasite, Pyro, Bombardier)
- As a sustain magic dealer, he's outshined (Zephyr, Artesia)
- no push (Midas, polly, etc...)
- Bad farm and terrible semi-carry potential => Hag any day.
TB doesn't have that much going on for him compared to any other hero that could fill a similar role. TB is limited to being a solo mid with a 350 attack range countered by two items and bad rune control.
It seems hard to balance a hero with three reliable somewhat scaling nukes and a global presence because if his burst is enough to ensure a kill and become a suitable pick, the enemy doesn't even have time to react and gets decimated by the amount of AoE and single target burst. But if he loses that, then he becomes a bad pick compared to almost any other hero with some added utility, semi carry potential, espace mechanism, etc...
Ps : Zeus is a terrible pick in Dota. And i don't think HoN heroes are tougher.
Last edited by Vomijaunatre; 03-05-2012 at 11:04 AM.
Strenghts:
Ulti good for stopping pk's.
2 Truevision spells good to see where they have placed wards (even in fights).
Global ulti that gives vision is great for teamfighting.
Short cd burst.
I want you to figure that out yourself, rather than have me spoonfeed you an opinion.
If you're going to quote people, don't do it wrong. It's not hard.
"Although tb getting 15k items is pretty much theorycrafting situation, power of that nuker with those 3 items increase greatlly making him very viable pick in terms of late game teamfight potential"
He also said before that:
"Sure its very hard near impossible to get it but with this 3 items you are doing 1k global unavoidable dmg. Imagine if you got pk on top of that jumped in the middle of enemys and procced 2x your passive durign that double ult."
Keep in mind that I think he's just as dumb as you (I have him on ignore list atm), but it's pretty obvious that he's not just going to cast his ult twice naked, but is using that example to serve a point. You however, have not realized this, and actually literally believe that all he would do is that with a refresher and line him up against a fully kitted out Armadon.
Given the nature of his first quote, even I can tell he doesn't mean only that, and even then - it serves as an example to demonstrate how much potential damage the hero does to the entire team, not just your one stacked token hero.
Hell, I even forgot to take into account the SotM boost on his level 3 ult (570 vs 460), and it still works out to a better number.
Now, take a seat at the back of the room and let the grownups talk.
Thanks in advance,
Everyone sensible.
GAH
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
LOL @ you, The 1K damage was his number, not mine. So obviously, he didn't mean 2K damage to 1 target but 1K to 5 targets.
2nd point: sure you can add a portal key, but that is the same as adding a demonic on top of Armadon build.
3rd point: You still didn't address the barrier idol that can easily counter him or the shrunken head despite his incredible damage.
4th point: I would prefer any other hero taking the time to farm items to get a huge potential more than once every 3,5 minutes... this is a LONG time to be efficient.
Overall, the build isn't bad but like anything else, the issue is that a team has limited gold to farm from. TB getting 15k gold means that someone else didn't, either your 'tank' as most teams run a beefy melee STR hero lately or a carry.
PS: no you do not give a clear idea of where you believe TB stand and just have fun trying to destroy people's arguments without really stating yourself where TB stands.
Go hide behind your other account... and ensure you give no clear stand point of view on is the hero currently balanced or not.
Posting Permissions
