Thread: [2.5.11] Thunderbringer

View Poll Results: Where would you place Thunderbringer in his current state?

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  • Too Strong

    6 4.05%
  • Borderline

    55 37.16%
  • Too Weak

    87 58.78%
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  1. #1

    [2.5.11] Thunderbringer

    Thunderbringer is a hero that has remained largely unchanged since his introduction as one of the first heroes in Dota. His skillset has remain basically the same throughout metagame changes, introduction of new items etc.

    I must say this hero is currently incredibly underpowered and quite possibly the worst hero in the game next to shadowblade. This hero has become the definition of obsolete and needs a major change. This hero has so many deficiencies i dont even know where to begin.

    First off, he is an int hero that fills more of a semi-carry role. He can't support (no disables) and needs levels and farm. With this he preferably needs a solo lane like mid. The problem with this is that this guy is made of paper. Hes probably the squishiest hero in the game. He will be the first target to die in any teamfight and has no way to stop it.

    He has no way of escaping ganks b/c he is the only INT hero in the game without any kind of slow or disable. The only others being Defiler, SR, and vindi. Of those 2 have silence and SR has a heal. Defiler and SR also can focus on building tank, while vindi does not need levels or farm to support.

    Mana battery + vestments pretty much counters TB's earlygame, and these items are cheap and stable pickups on almost every character in the game. TB is far from a mid stomp int hero (tort, poly) and is food for popular mids like tremble, nomad, Fayde. What makes this worse is that hes a high risk hero, if he falls behind earlygame with 1-2 deaths he quickly becomes a liability as he does not have good mid-late game farming ability. Compare this to other int carries (SR, Defiler, Puppet, tort, DR).

    While on paper his 2 nukes look good, his burst is very overrated. This is simply b/c he has no way to keep on target. If you run up on someone you can get 1 chain off and 1 blast off and they will simply run from you. Compare this to other burst heros like DW, Fayde, Pebbs whole all have CC and can solo burst down a hero.

    What makes matters worse is TBs poor attack range, average MS, and poor starting damage. At this point 350 range is almost a gimp and worst than melee if your not an auto attack carry. At least mq who is equally squishly early and has same Attkrange has 320 ms so she can kite her opponents.

    To sum it up, TB is item dependent yet not a good farmer. He does not carry or farm as well as other int carries, and cannot carry as hard either. He has the worst survivability in the game and ironically is gimped the most out of any hero once he falls behind. Compare to a hero like midas, who has equally strong nukes, flash farm ability, an escape mechanism, CC, push ability, as well as survivability due to being str, I cannot fathom a reason to ever pick TB.
    Last edited by Ekamo; 02-24-2012 at 05:27 PM.

  2. #2
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  3. #3
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    He seems to have little advantages over Bombardier (reveal, no delays, scaling), , and even Bombardier isn't picked up - probably in favor of tanky dps heroes (that deal comparable damage anyways), dual mids and stuff.
    He also has a hard time nuking down heroes when everyone's as tanky as they are.

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyve View Post
    He seems to have little advantages over Bombardier (reveal, no delays, scaling), , and even Bombardier isn't picked up - probably in favor of tanky dps heroes (that deal comparable damage anyways), dual mids and stuff.
    He also has a hard time nuking down heroes when everyone's as tanky as they are.
    Yea, but bomb has lane synergy with many other heroes as he has a slow and a potential disable that can easily kill if he can land it. Boomdust is good for harass and flash farming. Also if paired with someone like chronos, tempest, or tree Bomb's ult deals out massive damage in teamfights.

    Tb has no synergy at all with any other hero in game when laning.

  5. #5
    I think his main problem is that he's not enough of a threat for the being so easy to kill right now. His harassing is not that strong, and he is extremly mana hungry and his lack of CC makes his chain-blast burst only a way to either finish low enemies off or scare them away. The idea of him being an AOE nuker in teamfights (due to his passive) is greatly overshadowed by others like Torturer, and his burst doesen't compare to others such as Pyro, Pebbles, Fayde, etc... To be honest his passive is the only thing that actually does some dmg mid to end-game, his other spells are close to neglible. I would say he needs a small damage-tweak to even be next to worth picking because he takes a lot farm to be effective (high mana dependency, needs to build survival since he lacks any CC or escape (a 0.1s stun doesen't count), and maybe even boost his spells with SOTM and spellshards) and then he STILL deals rather low damage to anyone with Mystic Vestments or plain countered completly with a SH which is a very popular pickup. He also doesen't have the option of getting a few damage items and autoattack between cooldowns since his range and animation plain suck.
    Last edited by zstarkey42; 02-24-2012 at 06:23 PM.

  6. #6
    Agreed. He is slow and disable-less. He can pump out a lot of damage if you let him, but why would you?

    Maybe his third skill could add a slight slow to targets he hits? Like 2/4/6/8% move speed slow with a short duration, perhaps 3 seconds. (call the debuff Thunderstruck ) This would only apply to the first target of chain lightning.

    That way he at least can help add a bit of utility to the team, and gains a little bit of chase ability. Of course, 8% isn't huge and he's a pretty slow hero (was it 290?), so he'll likely still be outrun, but if he had heavy disables he'd be way too good.
    Last edited by Xinlitik; 02-24-2012 at 06:25 PM.

  7. #7
    I think he needs a ms increase. Buff his ms to 320 (same as mq). This would give him some survivability and chase ability. Also Make either Blast of lightning or his ult reduce enemy Magic armor by -1 per level

  8. #8
    Actually, a magic armor debuff on his spells sound like a great ideia to both pump his damage and synergize a little with other casters on his team (which he both lacks in the current form). TB is a fun hero to play but he is simply outclassed compared to other choices in the game right now.

  9. #9
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    He got one nerf to his passive and I think it was an unneeded one. Aside from that he was used frequently during the trilane era and was even used a couple of times by team EZ (when they were still going) before DHW and with moderate success. Yes I'm saying this about almost every hero that hasn't been used in a while, but that's because I think it's proof enough that this hero is at least close to fine, other heroes are just more powerful.

    The thing with trilanes was that in a 1v1 situation this hero is decent. Moreover, with a secured level advantage (unless the enemy trilane got fed hard) he'll always be on top of someone in the game in terms of levels. This hero also tends to have the highest hero damage in almost every reasonably balanced game he is in. I'd say the passive could be buffed back to its former state just to show people that the hero exists, he has weak movement speed, short ranged attacks and low defensive stats for a reason. He's got wicked damage.

    People say he's overshadowed by Bombardier as they are both completely based on dealing huge amounts of magic damage. I honestly don't think he's totally overshadowed, I think the main problem is the same as with Soulstealer, Defiler and other "classic" mids. They are just easy targets (but for good reason I'd say) and does not fit where their level advantage isn't secured.

    So, in short. Trends, power creep and unneeded nerfs.
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  10. #10
    A strength gain increase and a MS boost would set him straight.

  11. #11
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    Revert his passive back to deal 11% of enemy's max hp at max level, and see where he goes from there.
    Every hero below has one or more new ability effects, Check them out:
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  12. #12
    The repeated nerfs to his passive really killed any chance Thunderbringer had to get lane control middle. I would like to see those nerfs reverted.

  13. #13
    sr has a disable......

  14. #14
    Thunder simply cannot dual lane and nearly every solo at the moment is either tanky or has a blink away skill (or has both FUUUUUUUU). He cannot solo the safe lane since he's just going to push it with Chain Lightning since he can't CS with 300 something range consistently. He gets pushed out of a 2v1 mid situation since he can't trade well with a 600 range support and doesn't offer enough damage to get them off of him until he can get levels (which the support is going to prevent him from getting).

    (metagame problem without being able to solo mid)

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    something useful to his passive to make him viable again, maybe something similar to corrupted disciple's passive, a mini slow on hit?

  16. #16
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    His passive scales. His nukes are spammable and his ult has global damage and true vision to nearby invis heroes. Items like FWS slow applies to all heroes when he ults as well.

    No escape or disable? Yes but hes a strong nuker and aggressive mid hero. Nothing wrong with hero. Plus you can get cyclone and pk etc for escape.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregerMoek View Post
    He got one nerf to his passive and I think it was an unneeded one. Aside from that he was used frequently during the trilane era and was even used a couple of times by team EZ (when they were still going) before DHW and with moderate success. Yes I'm saying this about almost every hero that hasn't been used in a while, but that's because I think it's proof enough that this hero is at least close to fine, other heroes are just more powerful.

    The thing with trilanes was that in a 1v1 situation this hero is decent. Moreover, with a secured level advantage (unless the enemy trilane got fed hard) he'll always be on top of someone in the game in terms of levels. This hero also tends to have the highest hero damage in almost every reasonably balanced game he is in. I'd say the passive could be buffed back to its former state just to show people that the hero exists, he has weak movement speed, short ranged attacks and low defensive stats for a reason. He's got wicked damage.

    People say he's overshadowed by Bombardier as they are both completely based on dealing huge amounts of magic damage. I honestly don't think he's totally overshadowed, I think the main problem is the same as with Soulstealer, Defiler and other "classic" mids. They are just easy targets (but for good reason I'd say) and does not fit where their level advantage isn't secured.

    So, in short. Trends, power creep and unneeded nerfs.
    I think this pretty much sums up everything about this topic.

    Fragile, highly damaging mid heroes just aren't as worth picking as they used to be. The liability/risk factor is too high.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Apostate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GregerMoek View Post
    He got one nerf to his passive and I think it was an unneeded one. Aside from that he was used frequently during the trilane era and was even used a couple of times by team EZ (when they were still going) before DHW and with moderate success. Yes I'm saying this about almost every hero that hasn't been used in a while, but that's because I think it's proof enough that this hero is at least close to fine, other heroes are just more powerful.

    The thing with trilanes was that in a 1v1 situation this hero is decent. Moreover, with a secured level advantage (unless the enemy trilane got fed hard) he'll always be on top of someone in the game in terms of levels. This hero also tends to have the highest hero damage in almost every reasonably balanced game he is in. I'd say the passive could be buffed back to its former state just to show people that the hero exists, he has weak movement speed, short ranged attacks and low defensive stats for a reason. He's got wicked damage.

    People say he's overshadowed by Bombardier as they are both completely based on dealing huge amounts of magic damage. I honestly don't think he's totally overshadowed, I think the main problem is the same as with Soulstealer, Defiler and other "classic" mids. They are just easy targets (but for good reason I'd say) and does not fit where their level advantage isn't secured.

    So, in short. Trends, power creep and unneeded nerfs.
    I think this pretty much sums up everything about this topic.

    Fragile, highly damaging mid heroes just aren't as worth picking as they used to be. The liability/risk factor is too high.
    I agree with this, the game has changed, its not what it used to be. The question is, which is unbalanced? The game itself, or Heroes like ?

    A realignment balance where other heroes are brought down would probably be better off for the game as a whole, not sure if it would go down well though or if it would actually changed whether some of the less used heroes get picked up more or not though



    - Lacks threat in 1v1 scenario
    Even if there were an alignment one of the possible issues about TB is that he doesn't feel like much of a threat. Most heroes, even when they're alone it makes you wonder what they're going to do to you. TB will nuke you once, maybe twice and then you'll be able to run away, yeah it hurts, but unless you're already in pain he probably isn't going to kill you.

    Teamfight presence and being backed up with another hero vastly changes the situation, TB brings lots of damage, and when he can use it, things tend to go well.

    - 295 Movespeed
    - 350 Attack Range
    One improvement I would like to see for TB is to enhance his Hit and Run strategy that he does when alone by increasing his base movement speed up and over 300 (to at least 310) and possibly increasing his attack range to bring it close to the average Ranged caster. Lacking any form of disable other than a ministun and no escape mechanism, coupled with a lack of movespeed and low attack range making him completely food for many heroes because he dies unless he can kill them first which isn't likely.

    - Truesight aka Revealing Stealthed Units
    Also would like to have Lightning Rod to reveal any stealthed units struck by the damage for an ever so brief moment, such as 1 second. This would allow a player with good reflexes to use this window by unleashing Blast of Lightning on them. This will significantly increase his survival aspects by the possibility of a heads up from his biggest weakness in such a way that he might be able to do something about it. Using BoL to find a hero leaves him unable to actually follow it up with his primary ability, which means he's almost guaranteed to die.
    Last edited by OJPhoenix; 02-25-2012 at 09:08 PM.

  19. #19
    I'd personally like to see him get some versatility, as that's basically what all the dominant heroes have. Heroes that are strictly "Mid only" do not fair very well these days, and it would be nice to see TB viable for side laning.

    The only way I could see this happening without changing his mechanics would be to tweak his lightning bolt. Making it's damage scale only a little bit, and the cooldown scale instead, would make him infinitely better for side laning. Say, if it started with 175 damage and scaled to 350 (where it ends now), by level 3 TB would offer the highest "on demand" burst in a lane.

    If there was a longer CD, at the low levels, I don't think this would effect his mid much (slight buff overall, maybe). But if you paired him with someone who can disable/slow in a side lane, it would be a very burst combo. I always found it absurd that he has no control/disable/utility AND (at least at low levels) does not do much more damage than other ints. Heroes like witch slayer arguably do more burst because of stun/morph giving a few seconds to land auto attacks in addition to the stun damage.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmontana View Post
    On a seperate note I think TB needs

    320 ms
    -1 magic armor per level via blast of lightning
    -2/3/4 magic armor with ult (does not stack with blast of lightning debuff)
    At maximum he can apply a -4 magic armor debuff which at least negates vestments
    This will give him some team synergy which he so lacks
    Lol.

    How about "TB is fine!" and that the competitive scene blows at trying different lineups? (refer to my sig). Buffing his passive (and maybe the damage on his ultimate) is probably the maximum change the ape should get. He's very strong if given the support to snowball and his lack of mobility is the only balancing factor for the amount of damage he can put out.

    Put him dual mid if solo isn't an option (against a or w/e), but he doesn't need mega buffs ... please. People need to learn to build him properly with :EnhancedMarchers:/:Steamboots::TabletOfCommand::StaffOfTheMaster: and only then Spellshards and :RestorationStone:.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anakha View Post
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