[2.5.11]Bound Eye

[smurfberrys]

And also, why aren't we just viewing the bound-eye as a viable strategy? It brings about a cold war scenario of sorts where ward placement has to become creative instead of predictable

Counter wards do that. Bound eye does not. There aren't many high points to ward on so it's hardly got room to be creative. If you ward on the ground they'll see them anyway. If you get REALLY creative, well your wards probably weren't worth the gold you bought them for since there really isn't any place to put them.

Bound eye shuts down basically every viable warding spot if you have map control.

[[TECH]Gorb]

If you already have map control, you're already in a superior position. If that is the case, the only viable comeback scenario for the other team is a successful set of ganks or a teamfight.

If you don't have map control, Bound Eye puts you in a position where you can gain it, but you still need to invest in wards to do so.

[[IaF]Skyve]

If you already have map control, you're already in a superior position. If that is the case, the only viable comeback scenario for the other team is a successful set of ganks or a teamfight.

If you don't have map control, Bound Eye puts you in a position where you can gain it, but you still need to invest in wards to do so.

Your "only viable comeback scenario" of a series of successful ganks isn't exactly realistic if the enemy team has map control. That kinda means you're vulnerable to ganks, while they are resistant to it. And eye supports that kinda situation and prevents the enemy team frim regaining any form of control.
It also gives the other team an obious edge in teamfights.

If you aren't in control eye isn't much of an issue, because you can't abuse it too much.

[smurfberrys]

If you already have map control, you're already in a superior position. If that is the case, the only viable comeback scenario for the other team is a successful set of ganks or a teamfight.

If you don't have map control, Bound Eye puts you in a position where you can gain it, but you still need to invest in wards to do so.

I know that means you're in a superior position. That in itself is an advantage. Bound eye compounds that by taking every bit of vision you have on the map at little to no risk depending on how much you're winning by.

A team fight or set of ganks is not supposed to be the only viable comeback. A long time ago, there was a thing called a hard carry.

Leaving your base with a bound eye when you don't have map control/vision is very dangerous. You'll just get picked off without a 3-5 man squad. That's why I said it's not really powerful unless you have map control.

[Gaminos]

Your "only viable comeback scenario" of a series of successful ganks isn't exactly realistic if the enemy team has map control. That kinda means you're vulnerable to ganks, while they are resistant to it. And eye supports that kinda situation and prevents the enemy team frim regaining any form of control.
It also gives the other team an obious edge in teamfights.

If you aren't in control eye isn't much of an issue, because you can't abuse it too much.

If Team A invests in an eye and counters Team B's wards

there is nothing stopping Team B buying there own eye and countering Team A's wards, even after losing a Teamfight as 700 is achievable at any stage of the game

There is little to no risk in countering without any ward of sight of your own as you can just use high ground and abuse courier for scouting ahead/high ground vision

The item is fine, the courier perhaps not.

[[IaF]Skyve]

If Team A invests in an eye and counters Team B's wards

there is nothing stopping Team B buying there own eye and countering Team A's wards, even after losing a Teamfight as 700 is achievable at any stage of the game

There is little to no risk in countering without any ward of sight of your own as you can just use high ground and abuse courier for scouting ahead/high ground vision

The item is fine, the courier perhaps not.

Except that the team with map control can easily defend the wards an take your eye, because you won't know where they come from.

[zedz123]

Only read the first two pages but I would like to make a suggestion in terms of the direct counter to scout/nh. The bound eye no longer drops on death but only the holder can see the invisible units/wards. This would supports to be safe from a burst attack from scout or nh. Obviously this does not help the counterwarding situation but I just thought I would throw this in

[Z00lander]

Except that the team with map control can easily defend the wards an take your eye, because you won't know where they come from.

If the leading team is adamant in keeping their map-control, how is it the cause of a Bound Eye being OP? The leading team is just playing smart.
Aside from some tricks and loopholes (which are getting fixed), the actual item pricing and such seems balanced atm.

[smurfberrys]

If the leading team is adamant in keeping their map-control, how is it the cause of a Bound Eye being OP? The leading team is just playing smart.
Aside from some tricks and loopholes (which are getting fixed), the actual item pricing and such seems balanced atm.

Why would you bother making an argument which can be used for any item/hero regardless of whether it's OP or not? Obviously, it'd be smart play to use an item that is too powerful.

The argument I'm making is, bound eye offers too much to a team that has an advantage. If you disagree with that, you tell me why you think it isn't too powerful in the situation I'm discussing.

[Theburned]

Remake it into a Dust of Revelation with infinite charges (similar to TP scroll / Post Haste). No need to be dropped on death anymore (an archaism anyway).

a pulsing dust actually sounds nice, using a dust like effect every 5 seconds.

[Z00lander]

Why would you bother making an argument which can be used for any item/hero regardless of whether it's OP or not? Obviously, it'd be smart play to use an item that is too powerful.

The argument I'm making is, bound eye offers too much to a team that has an advantage. If you disagree with that, you tell me why you think it isn't too powerful in the situation I'm discussing.

I do not think it is too powerful because it does not have a direct effect in this situation (map control). Bound Eye can lead to the situation of one team having a map-control advantage, but is not a direct cause for a map control advantage. You cannot say that a team has better map control solely because of Bound Eye. Wards give you map control, and good team organized ganks prevent the enemy from placing wards and having map control themselves. You can have map control w/o a Bound Eye, and with the cheaper Revelation wards meant for the same situation which also do not drop on death I hardly see a problem.

It gives no stats and has no added effects, it just reveals. On the topic of revealing invisible heroes, though, I have no argument atm.

[[IaF]Skyve]

You cannot say that a team has better map control solely because of Bound Eye.

You can however say that a team has no chance of regaining map control because of bound eye, which is problematic.

[pechkin]

You can however say that a team has no chance of regaining map control because of bound eye, which is problematic.

you can say that dogs are cats, doesnt make it true.

[Turtlemilk]

There have been so many times where I have outplayed the enemy support and used intelligently placed wards to counter and not get countered. Then, the enemy Magebane says, "Too bad, it's me, Bound Eye."

Really, Bound Eye has no place in this game - it is no more than a herpin-derpin item that eliminates intelligent play. S2 should either remove Bound Eye from the game and improve Dust of Revelation so that it can be used on magic immune enemies, or give Bound Eye an 8-minute timer.

[Sherwood]

I don't know where to stand on this, but in the bracket I exist in, the eye is bought when you are in a strong position and you have a team member who isn't that likely to die fast. You also need one team member to want to give up 700g for the good of the team.

When you are in a bad situation, depending on the type of stealth use you're countering, often the squishy support will buy some counter wards or dust which consumes item space and farm. The support buys these items to try and turn the tide of battle, but ultimately makes themselves more squishy. Counter wards are used for pre-emptive stealth detection, but you need a large supply of them to use them optimally. The location of potential team fights can shift significantly, so placed wards can become obsolete. Basically if you need to counter stealth and are losing, you're stuffed in less you have a behemoth of a hero to carry an eye.

My only sure problem with the eye is that it utterly counters Nighthound's Ultimate for only 700g. Nullstone counters a lot of global Ultimates and Target Hero ones, but that costs like 5k. Buff ultimates are countered by a nullfire blade costing in the region of 3kg. The most logical solution would be to change Nighthound so he is not a gimicky stealth hero. All other heroes with Stealth abilities have something special thrown in as well. 700g shouldn't be all you need to counter an ultimate.

[[IaF]Skyve]

There have been so many times where I have outplayed the enemy support and used intelligently placed wards to counter and not get countered. Then, the enemy Magebane says, "Too bad, it's me, Bound Eye."

Really, Bound Eye has no place in this game - it is no more than a herpin-derpin item that eliminates intelligent play. S2 should either remove Bound Eye from the game and improve Dust of Revelation so that it can be used on magic immune enemies, or give Bound Eye an 8-minute timer.

I honestly can not see anything negative happening with the removal of Eye. I do not really think it adds anything to the game.
Among the possible changes to Eye, removing it certainly is one of my favourites.

[[GnJA]Good_Apollo]

The pubtrain meta has put this item completely over the edge. Normally it's got some decent drawbacks but now with 8-minute 5-man gank/pushing strategies it becomes a necessity that makes invis heroes even more obsolete and wards, to counter the incredibly annoying strat, impossible to keep up.

[Oozzaru]

so op likes to play scout and nh?

[KingIsRey]

I honestly can not see anything negative happening with the removal of Eye. I do not really think it adds anything to the game.
Among the possible changes to Eye, removing it certainly is one of my favourites.

I somewhat agree with you; eye adds nothing to the game. Its removal will no doubt cause a shift in the meta, though, but with rev wards and dust availble I still see it being do-able.

[Alten]

To be more specific, eye adds the potential for more aggression on a team. A team with an eye feels more comfortable being aggressive because they know they can easily terminate all important wards while also definitively shutting down any possible invisibility play, which does have its place in this meta with heroes like Valk or Fayde and invis runes/genjuros still being a threat.


While removing eye would certainly create a more dynamic and (at least for me) more enjoyable meta in the short term, it also unleashes the potential havoc of invis heroes and promotes ward paranoia. This leads in many cases to stagnant passive play, as was observed in the 70 min farmfest trilane meta. Teams are more inclined to become inwardly focused if powerful invisible gankers are capable of killing any individual in a relatively short amount of time; the risk to supports, especially, will cause teams to devolve into tight trilanes that practically hug their towers. Junglers would probably see another cease, as well. It is important to keep in mind that this is not just applicable in the cases of powerful invis gankers; with the increased power of defensive wards in such games, teams become more reluctant to move out in case of ambush or simply in case their time is wasted (which is more significant in a more farming-oriented meta as opposed to the more mid-game oriented meta we currently have).


This is just theory-crafting though. I've frequently alleged myself that I am insane/stupid, so I don't mind if you pay it no regard.